Saw this while cruising the Bay. Not sure if it's been discussed yet. Not mine but thought it was interesting.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Ford-Thunderbird-LANDAU/264079451335?hash=item3d7c5ca4c7:g:4KcAAOSwvfpcDBeQ:rk:43:pf:0
Craig R.
Wow would expect a story like this in the April fools edition of the saac magazine
In the registry? ;)
IIRC, this car (and letter) or one like it was debunked in one of the old Shelby Americans.
I'm not a signature expert, but even I can see that this one is a fake:
Couple of points from an old guy...
Shelby's signature changed over time. He did not always sign with a line under his name.
Shelby American had a lot of vehicles that were not Mustangs or Cobras. I am not sure that adds anything to their value.
I dont believe Shelby had an inventory of cars from the 1960s, when I started in the mid 1980s, the Shelby Club didnt have a complete inventory of Shelbys and Cobras.
Wonder if a Marti report would confirm or debunk the story?
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 09, 2018, 08:58:23 AM
Couple of points from an old guy...
Shelby's signature changed over time. He did not always sign with a line under his name.
Shelby American had a lot of vehicles that were not Mustangs or Cobras. I am not sure that adds anything to their value.
I dont believe Shelby had an inventory of cars from the 1960s, when I started in the mid 1980s, the Shelby Club didnt have a complete inventory of Shelbys and Cobras.
I agree Pete that signatures change, but these signatures truly don't match. The way the 'H' in Shelby begins is a very obvious feature, as is also the 'Y' in Shelby. Perhaps a secretary signed it for him, but as Mr Gaines always says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Quote from: BGlover67 on December 09, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 09, 2018, 08:58:23 AM
Couple of points from an old guy...
Shelby's signature changed over time. He did not always sign with a line under his name.
Shelby American had a lot of vehicles that were not Mustangs or Cobras. I am not sure that adds anything to their value.
I dont believe Shelby had an inventory of cars from the 1960s, when I started in the mid 1980s, the Shelby Club didnt have a complete inventory of Shelbys and Cobras.
I agree Pete that signatures change, but these signatures truly don't match. The way the 'H' in Shelby begins is a very obvious feature, as is also the 'Y' in Shelby. Perhaps a secretary signed it for him, but as Mr Gaines always says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I think Pete got me in the habit but regardless in this case truer words could not be spoken. ;D
I think its a great motto, everyone should keep it in mind.
I must say, I enjoy the creativity of some. I dont think the are Marti Reports for 1966s
... Do we have an exemplar of Al Dowd's signature as well?
Quote from: BGlover67 on December 09, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 09, 2018, 08:58:23 AM
Couple of points from an old guy...
Shelby's signature changed over time. He did not always sign with a line under his name.
Shelby American had a lot of vehicles that were not Mustangs or Cobras. I am not sure that adds anything to their value.
I dont believe Shelby had an inventory of cars from the 1960s, when I started in the mid 1980s, the Shelby Club didnt have a complete inventory of Shelbys and Cobras.
I have seen different "Y"s as I have several Signed items from over the years. It is the "C" and the "S" that haven't seen before.
I agree Pete that signatures change, but these signatures truly don't match. The way the 'H' in Shelby begins is a very obvious feature, as is also the 'Y' in Shelby. Perhaps a secretary signed it for him, but as Mr Gaines always says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Quote from: Bill on December 09, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
Wonder if a Marti report would confirm or debunk the story?
Not a good year to get information from the Ford source from Kevin or Ford itself
One would think that if it was built and part of a promotion the seller would be showing ads, news coverage and so on from the promotion. Just a thought
Interesting photo
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/175640454202771678/
Shelby didn't sell cars from 6501 Imperial.
Is anyone watching this? It is bid up to $92,100.00 and still has a day to go! Wow!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Ford-Thunderbird-LANDAU/264079451335?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Ford-Thunderbird-LANDAU/264079451335?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649)
$92,000 plus, and think, there are nine more out there like it.......
Quote from: KerryBWhite on December 09, 2018, 04:38:17 PM
Interesting photo
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/175640454202771678/
Except that one is a '65.
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 09, 2018, 08:32:10 AM
IIRC, this car (and letter) or one like it was debunked in one of the old Shelby Americans.
A similar letter was sent to the National Hot Rod Association , signed by CS himself stating that SAI "experimented with aluminum driveshafts" for '67 GT500s. BS from CS.
''Service" would have been done at HP Motors (IMHO) Not Santa Monica Ford ( on such a special vehicle) I too believe it would have been sold through HP Motors. SAI only sold to dealers.
Randy
... when was the promotion?
It seems Mr Becker might have some insight? I think he posts on the forum.....
The family of a friend of mine supposedly had one of these. I was a 1966 T-Bird, black, and I vaguely remember it having a HP Motors license plate frame. I thought he was putting me on at the time, but now maybe not. However, that was over 50 years ago.
Greek
you can never say never BUT I asked the SAAC people that have all the records and paperwork and none ever have seen anything on this in any factory records. Im guessing someone put a set of Cragar mags on it from a 65 and the rest is history.
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 09, 2018, 08:32:10 AM
IIRC, this car (and letter) or one like it was debunked in one of the old Shelby Americans.
I dug out the Shelby American (#65) where this car and a similar letter were sent to CS and then to Kopec for the SAAC Mail Bag. See scan.
As I mentioned, they were debunked after CS, Al Dowd and Lew Spencer called BS.
I guess the owner didn't like the answer and waited for CS to pass on in order to try and cash in. You can say what you want if no one is there to deny it. I know I bought my car because it came with a letter stating Steve McQueen was being pleasured by Angie Dickinson & Anne Margaret while doing 198 miles per hour across the Golden Gate Bridge.
If someone is willing to pay that kind of coin for a Thunderchicken with Cragars, they deserve what they get.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 17, 2018, 01:41:14 PM
... when was the promotion?
It seems Mr Becker might have some insight? I think he posts on the forum.....
The Flying Mullet?
In the auction there is a letter addressed to Joel Werchowsky on October 4, 1982 from Carroll Shelby. The address is 2915 Arglye Salem, Oregon. This is probably the letter that SAAC debunked in SA # 65.
I live in Salem, OR. Salem is located in Marion County. I went to the Marion County Tax Assessor website map and looked up the property.
The property has been owned by Mr. & Mrs. Callahan since 1979. In the owner history section there is Mr. Hatteberg who sold it in 1979 and Mr & Mrs. Callahan who purchased it in 1979. The Werchowsky name is not listed as owning the house at any time relevant to the date of the letter in the auction. That doesn't prove that Joel Werchowsky didn't live there at some point, but I think it helps out the case of this being a phony story.
Someone is going to be vary angry and disappointed when proper research is done. Bidding has reached $155,300.00
Maybe Bill Cosby did a test drive in it too! 8)
Unlikely the bid history is sketchy at best
On a Thunderbird Facebook page one guy shared the window sticker. (see attached). Cool, but it doesn't show proof of any sort of promotion or there being 10 of them.
Interesting, not sure why the ebay ad doesn't have it.
It is a Brass Tag car so it must have been built for someone high up on the food chain. But you're right. no proof of a promotion or how many of them were built.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 17, 2018, 05:51:44 PM
Unlikely the bid history is sketchy at best
Plenty of new bidders with less than 3 bid history usually = shill bidding
I can hardly wait for the law suit ;)
More information on the T-Bird registry site, just for fun (FYI). I'm still having a hard time believing it is something special to command this kind of money. Oh well, I'm glad it isn't my money.
http://tbird.info/registry/Data_Sheet_list.php?q=(VIN~equals~6Y87Q113856) (http://tbird.info/registry/Data_Sheet_list.php?q=(VIN~equals~6Y87Q113856))
Quote from: silverton_ford on December 17, 2018, 06:26:51 PM
On a Thunderbird Facebook page one guy shared the window sticker. (see attached). Cool, but it doesn't show proof of any sort of promotion or there being 10 of them.
Interesting, not sure why the ebay ad doesn't have it.
Does that invoice look a little too perfect to anyone else? My 1969 Dearborn window sticker had printing from what I always thought was a Daisy Wheel Printer. Letters and numbers not quite in alignment up and down.
Even if the story is true it's definitely way out on the periphery as far as being a Shelby collectible...Frankly I would prefer a can of "pit stop"for the man cave any day(plus it would take up a helluva lot less room.. ;)
Quote from: 557 on December 17, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Even if the story is true it's definitely way out on the periphery as far as being a Shelby collectible...Frankly I would prefer a can of "pit stop"for the man cave any day(plus it would take up a helluva lot less room.. ;)
If that means you are willing to match the T-Bird top bid price for a can of "pit stop" instead, I have a can I will sell you! 8)
This auction is full of sh!t. I guarantee the only reason it's bid up to $155k is because there might be $200k of crack in the trunk.
QSS
Quote from: Don Johnston on December 17, 2018, 09:23:49 PM
Quote from: 557 on December 17, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Even if the story is true it's definitely way out on the periphery as far as being a Shelby collectible...Frankly I would prefer a can of "pit stop"for the man cave any day(plus it would take up a helluva lot less room.. ;)
If that means you are willing to match the T-Bird top bid price for a can of "pit stop" instead, I have a can I will sell you! 8)
. No just that I (personally)find the pit stop more interesting ,not comeasurate in value... ;)
Look on the pink invoice at the last item "tag #301 M 003". That is an ''asset tag number" also known as a "brass tag" . These were put on certain vehicles loaned to specific individuals for personal or development work. Actual ownership was STILL Ford Motor Company. These were often sold or "released" to the person they were allocated to at a later date. I have a couple of Ford documents for '68-69 "brass tag " vehicle tracking. Smokey Yunick had three vehicles allocated to him as an example. Some of the vehicles on my list are marked "returned" and others "to be returned". These cars are hard to document so I can see why "creative history" might be used to hype it.
Randy
The ebay ad does not have the picture of the original invoice showing because the seller just got it from Kevin Marti and it was to late to add a pix to the auction but you can be rest-assured that the high bidder/buyer/new owner will get the original - Some of you all gotta be very careful on this and other forums about talking trash about someones car and/or about someone them-selves as your words may come back to haunt you in the form of some very expensive litigation -
Just saying...............
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about in the/my above post (see below)
-------------------------------------------------------
QuickSilverShelby
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Re: 1966 Promotional Ford Shelby T-Bird
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 11:55:58 PM »
Quote
This auction is full of sh!t. I guarantee the only reason it's bid up to $155k is because there might be $200k of crack in the trunk.
I would be more concerned with litigation arising from the use of a letter purportedly signed by CS as provenance given that he himself indicated it was a forgery. If that document is specious in nature, then there is nothing tying the car directly to CS as ever having used the car as a demo. It may have been sent to Shelby American , but that means very little. If there were ten cars as alleged, then I would think that there is a good possibility that Kevin Marti (they will always be Emminger reports to me) could pull the info based upon the destination (Shelby American). In addition, it is quite possible that they would be close in numerical VIN order to this one if they were all ordered the same way.
Coming from a family of attorneys, just sayin...................
Sfm6sxxx ...................... thank you.
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 18, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
I would be more concerned with litigation arising from the use of a letter purportedly signed by CS as provenance given that he himself indicated it was a forgery. If that document is specious in nature, then there is nothing tying the car directly to CS as ever having used the car as a demo. It may have been sent to Shelby American , but that means very little. If there were ten cars as alleged, then I would think that there is a good possibility that Kevin Marti (they will always be Emminger reports to me) could pull the info based upon the destination (Shelby American). In addition, it is quite possible that they would be close in numerical VIN order to this one if they were all ordered the same way.
Coming from a family of attorneys, just sayin...................
You could be correct - I did not see where CS publicly, in writing, dated with his signature, disavowed the (original) "letter" that appears to have been out there for decades - This new discovery from Kevin Marti of the original invoice certainly does add, in my opinion, additional mystery to the car - Just watching from the sidelines - I do not have a dog in the fight - SGB
Quote from: stephen_becker on December 18, 2018, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 18, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
I would be more concerned with litigation arising from the use of a letter purportedly signed by CS as provenance given that he himself indicated it was a forgery. If that document is specious in nature, then there is nothing tying the car directly to CS as ever having used the car as a demo. It may have been sent to Shelby American , but that means very little. If there were ten cars as alleged, then I would think that there is a good possibility that Kevin Marti (they will always be Emminger reports to me) could pull the info based upon the destination (Shelby American). In addition, it is quite possible that they would be close in numerical VIN order to this one if they were all ordered the same way.
Coming from a family of attorneys, just sayin...................
You could be correct - I did not see where CS publicly, in writing, dated with his signature, disavowed the (original) "letter" that appears to have been out there for decades - This new discovery from Kevin Marti of the original invoice certainly does add, in my opinion, additional mystery to the car - Just watching from the sidelines - I do not have a dog in the fight - SGB
You are correct. I am not aware of a signed letter from CS disavowing it. I have also never seen a letter from Bill Clinton denying his alleged acts with Monica.
However, ignoring his epic April Fool's jokes, I highly doubt that Kopec would risk libel 21 years ago by lying about his verbal/written communications with CS, Al Dowd, and Lew Spencer. Although, I suppose it could be a conspiracy to cheat the seller out of a fair price for this treasure 21 years in the future.
That said, given that we are discussing a possible forgery, one could also call into question the letter that refutes it. Sort of a snake eating its own tail (just realized the snake irony).
Aside from the questionable signature, I don't know a self respecting secretary in the 80's that would capitalize all the letters in CS's name in the salutation.
Just in, Shelby American has announced that they will license a "limited" run of continuation T-Birds for the 52nd anniversary of the historic promotion. Just bring your car and $50k. You will receive a set of five (not four) Cragar Shelby Rims from Paradise Wheels and a Certificate of Authenticity. For $1k more, your dash can be signed by Matt Damon.
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 18, 2018, 02:49:18 PM
Just in, Shelby American has announced that they will license a "limited" run of continuation T-Birds for the 52nd anniversary of the historic promotion. Just bring your car and $50k. You will receive a set of five (not four) Cragar Shelby Rims from Paradise Wheels and a Certificate of Authenticity. For $1k more, your dash can be signed by Matt Damon.
Dear god help us all, please god, anything, but not Matt Damon!!! ;)
How about a Pookie dash signature? Now that would make the entire deal authentic if he throws in a letter and a box. 8)
Quote from: stephen_becker on December 18, 2018, 11:35:57 AM
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about in the/my above post (see below)
-------------------------------------------------------
QuickSilverShelby
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Re: 1966 Promotional Ford Shelby T-Bird
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 11:55:58 PM »
Quote
This auction is full of sh!t. I guarantee the only reason it's bid up to $155k is because there might be $200k of crack in the trunk.
A buddy of yours maybe?
So how come bidding got to $155k and then suddenly dropped backed to $125k?
Why are you defending misrepresentation of facts and such obvious shill bidding? All the
true experts (non hucksters) on this forum have spoken, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".
>:(
QSS
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on December 18, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
I would be more concerned with litigation arising from the use of a letter purportedly signed by CS as provenance given that he himself indicated it was a forgery. If that document is specious in nature, then there is nothing tying the car directly to CS as ever having used the car as a demo. It may have been sent to Shelby American , but that means very little. If there were ten cars as alleged, then I would think that there is a good possibility that Kevin Marti (they will always be Emminger reports to me) could pull the info based upon the destination (Shelby American). In addition, it is quite possible that they would be close in numerical VIN order to this one if they were all ordered the same way.
Coming from a family of attorneys, just sayin...................
Amen to that brother.
QSS
No idea what you are referring to - I have not supported misrepresentation of anything - Not a buddy of mine nor do I have any financial interest in the car or the auction - I already stated I do not have a dog in the fight - Just sitting on the sidelines watching it happen -
As far as the quote "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" that is easy for a third party to say. I would say that the seller/owner silenced some folks on this forum that said no way that car was sold/delivered/came from SAI in Los Angeles when he presented a newly discovered original factory invoice for the car showing that, in fact, the car was sold/delivered/came and was order by SAI
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on December 18, 2018, 08:22:21 PM
Quote from: stephen_becker on December 18, 2018, 11:35:57 AM
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about in the/my above post (see below)
-------------------------------------------------------
QuickSilverShelby
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Posts: 151
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Re: 1966 Promotional Ford Shelby T-Bird
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 11:55:58 PM »
Quote
This auction is full of sh!t. I guarantee the only reason it's bid up to $155k is because there might be $200k of crack in the trunk.
A buddy of yours maybe?
So how come bidding got to $155k and then suddenly dropped backed to $125k?
Why are you defending misrepresentation of facts and such obvious shill bidding? All the true experts (non hucksters) on this forum have spoken, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".
>:(
QSS
Quote
..... that is easy for a third party to say.
Yes, yes it is easy for a third party to say. But it is so true.
I think the third party members that make these statements are truly the "the most renowned Shelby authorities in the world".
Sorry bud, but you're second fiddle on these forums.
QSS
Nice! - another insult you throw my way - what's wrong with you? I come on here and participate in this discussion and you attack me - why? Did I fluster you with my simple statements of fact?
Second fiddle huh?
I would rather be second fiddle then a second class(less) person that you have show yourself to be -
Stephen Becker
That's right..... second fiddle.
I am simply stating fact. You pale in comparison to "the most renowned Shelby authorities in the world'" that actually reside and contribute to this site.
That's the last response that I have to you and your alleged "contributions".
QSS
I still have NO idea what your talking about or referring to in your posts
SGB
Has anyone actually lost a lawsuit, because they expressed thier opinion ( however ludicrious) on a forum?
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 19, 2018, 07:12:05 AM
Has anyone actually lost a lawsuit, because they expressed thier opinion ( however ludicrious) on a forum?
Stormey Daniels? ::)
;D
Well, she "sold" for $125,100.00. All we can do now is wait for it to surface.
I for one am excited to see the next chapter in the life of this anagogic (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic) legend. ::)
Chris
I believe she LOST her defamation of character and has to pay Trump ! LMAO
This just in ..... NONE of us "walk on water". Until one of us does , we are all human. Just take the "sandbox spats" to a PM where less people are affected or embarrassed , please.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on December 19, 2018, 12:12:50 PM
I believe she LOST her defamation of character and has to pay Trump ! LMAO
This just in ..... NONE of us "walk on water". Until one of us does , we are all human. Just take the "sandbox spats" to a PM where less people are affected or embarrassed , please.
Randy
Yes, take it outside please!
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on December 19, 2018, 09:11:12 AM
Well, she "sold" for $125,100.00. All we can do now is wait for it to surface.
I for one am excited to see the next chapter in the life of this anagogic (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic) legend. ::)
Chris
Odds are it will be back up for sale given that the seller has had to "resell" a Mondial four times and a boat that looks like the SS Minnow three times.
RATS,
I lost my "opportunity of a lifetime"! I guess I'll have to be content with this old Mustang "once owned by Carroll Shelby" LMAO.
Another T-Bird at SA.
Looks to be a convertible
Very interesting......Never say Never!
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/842313936532194147/
Its not new information. They had other cars and trucks too.
Here is what I have never understood... what difference does it make if someone had something unique or special? Its like complaining about someone else being sucessful... good for them.
Quote from: KerryBWhite on December 19, 2018, 07:03:54 PM
Another T-Bird at SA.
Looks to be a convertible
Very interesting......Never say Never!
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/842313936532194147/
Another '65 'bird by the surrounding cars in the "Venice" photo.