Mk2 Cobra engine

[nineinchrear]

Is it possible to match a '63 HiPo engine to a particular car by its Ford stamped id ( PAxxxx)? Does the SAAC hold records of chassis/ engine number as built, either at SAI or AC?

[Dan Case]

quote author=nineinchrear link=msg=195418 date=1712767141]
Is it possible to match a '63 HiPo engine to a particular car by its Ford stamped id ( PAxxxx)? Does the SAAC hold records of chassis/ engine number as built, either at SAI or AC?
[/quote]

Based on prior experience, it might not be the way you might have in mind.

Car owners can request information from any factory paperwork the registrar has regarding their car and in that paperwork might be the engine number documented for their car. One might ask if engine X was installed in car Y and get an answer if it is in the files.

[wcampbell]

If you happen to have an engine in your possession - would you be willing to share the casting date on the block? This might help further determine a car missing an engine near that time window to help narrow down a bit. For example if your block is say 3C15 (March 15th 1963) it might help to understand it's from an '63 car within X build window vs. 3K15 (October 15th 1963) which is considered a '64 engine installed in a car perhaps 75 cars later. I only suggest this because not all COBRA records clearly identify an engine. As well, knowing the model year it was intended for may help understand its market accuracy and value.

[Dan Case]

If you happen to have an engine in your possession - would you be willing to share the casting date on the block? This might help further determine a car missing an engine near that time window to help narrow down a bit. For example if your block is say 3C15 (March 15th 1963) it might help to understand it's from an '63 car within X build window vs. 3K15 (October 15th 1963) which is considered a '64 engine installed in a car perhaps 75 cars later. I only suggest this because not all COBRA records clearly identify an engine. As well, knowing the model year it was intended for may help understand its market accuracy and value.

Engine assembly date is the single most important date detail, followed by engine serial number.  There was not ONE five bolt HP289 engine 1963-64 but a family of them with Ford changes in some significant components periodically. Engineering assembly numbers and quick order codes changed at each significant change in parts lists. (The time between the casting of a cylinder block and incorporating it into a complete engine could be weeks to several months, so that date is not all that informative.) 

[nineinchrear]

Block date 3E10, Assy date 3E15A and Carb 3DC (still has original Autolite).

[Dan Case]

Block date 3E10, Assy date 3E15A and Carb 3DC (still has original Autolite).

Interesting. A private message sent through this forum with my email address should you care to share engine details for inclusion in the database I keep on early HP289 engines. An intact engine it that time frame is very interesting to study.

[wcampbell]

So as I indicated before - likely not an engine in a '64 car being 3E10 (May 10th '63) is clearly a mid-late '63 car engine. At least you know if there's a COBRA it belongs to it'd be a '63 car sold in Summer of '63 I'd guess - odds are greatest for this. I'd argue perhaps on the early side of MKII Production. Dan I believe I've heard you say before no June engines built and the next batch was perhaps July/Aug which would then likely fall into a '64 production chassis.... something this timeframe would be good to learn production changes from. If memory serves this would have the timing cover oil filler neck, PCV valve covers and a road draft tube. IT would also likely have a Ford generator with it.

[tesgt350]

Wouldn't the HiPo's also have a VIN Stamped on it?  Did SAI Stamp any Vin's on them?

[A-Snake]

Wouldn't the HiPo's also have a VIN Stamped on it?  Did SAI Stamp any Vin's on them?

Cobras did not have VIN stamped engines.

[Cobramax]

The engine number was stamped on the Shelby serial number tag on at least some 289 Cobras.

[A-Snake]

The engine number was stamped on the Shelby serial number tag on at least some 289 Cobras.

Typically, the Cobra footbox tag began at the CSX22xx mark. (The beginning of the third contact of cars.) AC Cars Ltd stamped the VIN number on the tag and Shelby American stamped the engine number on the tag. Some Cobras below CSX22xx had footbox tags added at a later time. Perhaps some stated required an easily found and displayed VIN.

[Dan Case]

The engine number was stamped on the Shelby serial number tag on at least some 289 Cobras.

Typically, the Cobra footbox tag began at the CSX22xx mark. (The beginning of the third contact of cars.) AC Cars Ltd stamped the VIN number on the tag and Shelby American stamped the engine number on the tag. Some Cobras below CSX22xx had footbox tags added at a later time. Perhaps some stated required an easily found and displayed VIN.

CSX2201-CSX2589 roadsters left England with A.C. Cars, Ltd data tags with chassis number stamped into them COB/COX6001-6062 cars also had tags. True or not, one European source claimed it was a change in English law that made the installation of data tags mandatory. For title and registration purposes the number stamped into the frames was to be used. Some states in the USA titled and registered new cars not by their chassis or vehicle identification number but by engine number.  That was not fool proof for American market cars as engine numbers stamped into tags did not always match the numbers on engines and in some cases no engine number at all was stamped into a car's tag.

[Dan Case]

Wouldn't the HiPo's also have a VIN Stamped on it?  Did SAI Stamp any Vin's on them?

Cobras did not have VIN stamped engines.

Chassis numbers no. Street car engines no. Shelby race department prepared race engines, not car VINs but they were assigned race engine serial numbers and were so stamped. The numbers were used in company documents including engine build and test reports. No matter what car the race engine was in it kept its race shop engine number the best I can tell. 

Team car induction systems often had serial numbers stamped by Shelby American. Race prepared had Shelby American serial numbers in marked pairs. Sometimes Weber carburetors got race shop serial numbers added.

[Dan Case]

If you happen to have an engine in your possession - would you be willing to share the casting date on the block? This might help further determine a car missing an engine near that time window to help narrow down a bit. For example if your block is say 3C15 (March 15th 1963) it might help to understand it's from an '63 car within X build window vs. 3K15 (October 15th 1963) which is considered a '64 engine installed in a car perhaps 75 cars later. I only suggest this because not all COBRA records clearly identify an engine. As well, knowing the model year it was intended for may help understand its market accuracy and value.

Pictures of a mostly intact engine before rework tells a lot. Some parts and methods were applied by engine installers at vehicle assembly plants. A number of ancillary parts were unique to new Cobras. Said another way, if the engine was prepared for a Ford Fairlane it would not have all the same ancillaries as one prepared to install into a new Cobra.

[Dan Case]

Wouldn't the HiPo's also have a VIN Stamped on it?  Did SAI Stamp any Vin's on them?

Shelby American did not put chassis "VIN" identification on High Performance 289 engines of any car I ever heard of or studied. Almost all of 1962-1964 Experimental High Performance 260, High Performance 260, Experimental High Performance 289, and High Performance 289 engines were assigned numbers and stamped with them by Ford Motor Company during engine assembly. That was engines made in 1962, 1963, and 1964 before the last week of July 1964.  The "1964" model exception was the special "1964" High Performance 289 engines made just for new Cobras in August 1964 did not get Ford serial numbers.  (Yes, 1964 model year five bolt engines made after 1965 model year six bolt engine production had been in progress a month already.)

In late July 1964 Ford's Cleveland engine plant started producing six bolt engine assemblies of low and high performance types. The six bolt High Performance 289 street engines were not given serial numbers by Ford from then on.  There was a very small number of race only High Performance 289 engines in the 1967 model year that not only got serial numbers but a manual with the number written on it also.

Somebody else needs to comment on VIN numbers Ford vehicle assembly plants added to High Performance 289 engines in starting in mid-1964.