'69 Convertible Emblem

[shelbymann1970]

Here is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
 Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/

[Bob Gaines]

Here is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
 Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/

Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.

[shelbymann1970]

Here is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
 Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/

Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.

Possibly from no emblems to the snake emblems  only being done and then the Shelby emblem  added to the snake emblem  by Ford. That was pretty much what Tony told me back in the 80s as pertaining why some original cars had them while others didn't. Since my car was an export car to me it would be highly unlikely Claude installed them. What is the consensus by  the judges as to when these emblems appeared on cars? We all know that Tony went through a lot of original Shelbys back then. Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do. I remember on SAAC 1.0 some tried to say those were an accessory item but they were never in a catalog so, hence, not an accessory item. So are you saying these emblems never came on the cars out of AO Smith and were all dealer mounted?

[J_Speegle]

............... Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do.

Yes. Guess a kid stealing one could have grabbed them from all three if they were parked close enough to one another at the dealership or on the transporter when ever it travel from or was parked for the night. Just another possibility since we're exploring them

[Bob Gaines]

Here is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
 Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/

Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.

Possibly from no emblems to the snake emblems  only being done and then the Shelby emblem  added to the snake emblem  by Ford. That was pretty much what Tony told me back in the 80s as pertaining why some original cars had them while others didn't. Since my car was an export car to me it would be highly unlikely Claude installed them. What is the consensus by  the judges as to when these emblems appeared on cars? We all know that Tony went through a lot of original Shelbys back then. Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do. I remember on SAAC 1.0 some tried to say those were an accessory item but they were never in a catalog so, hence, not an accessory item. So are you saying these emblems never came on the cars out of AO Smith and were all dealer mounted?

Gary I was trying to get clarification of what you were trying to say. I will try again ,are you implying that AO Smith changed which emblems that they applied during 69/70 production? 

[shelbymann1970]

Gary I was trying to get clarification of what you were trying to say. I will try again ,are you implying that AO Smith changed which emblems that they applied during 69/70 production? 

Sorry Bob, I'll try and be clearer. My take going back decades thanks to a talk with Tony was the early cars didn't have the snake emblems or the rectangular Shelby plaques on them.
   Then the snakes alone came on cars then the snakes along with the rectangular Shelby plaques appeared to be the norm. Now again this was an observation from Tony going back to what he had owned and seen back when he started buying this cars. IIRC there was no transformation date they just stated appearing. My limited library of photos I see F-60-15 cars with the snakes and some with both. When you look at the pics I posted the F-60-15 cars all had snakes and some with both. The blackwall E-70-15 cars(no hertz cars in pics) had no emblems or just the snake.
   So my thoughts are F-60-15 cars you would expect to see the  snakes at least(refer is Belgium auto show GT350 FB) and then the Shelby rectangular plaques on these cars. Before April 1(approx) you could see the snakes or nothing on these cars. Bear in mind it could have been Feb that both appeared-it's just that I have no blackwall tire pics showing both on these cars. You may, Jeff may or others. THat is why I brought it up. I just found it very interesting that 3 69 Shelbys sitting on Ed Martin's lot in May of 69 had all 3 iterations sitting there. If dealers installed them then why not all 3 cars with both emblems on Ed's lot? Also who actually installed those emblems? Were they done at AO Smith or the dealers? I'd find it weird if dealers stocked those emblems to put on the cars but I'm no expert on this-only trying to understand what went on with the facts that present themselves here and I think the Ed Martin pics would be important. Just like the Belgium car show where there is a GT350 vert with blackwalls and no emblems but a F-60-15 FB(LATER car) with the snake. So if I was restoring a car and had a May or later car from my limited pics I'd put both on the car. Very Early car I'd put nothing on but early to mid or in my limited knowledge into April I'd use the snake only.
 
      BTW I think I told you the car below when I bought it had PITTED roof emblems and they were GRILL emblems. Yep, grill emblems on a June built 70 GT500. #3052 and it had the barrel clip holes drilled into the roof on both sides. Possibly one of those dealer thefts and the dealer mounted the grill emblems. Now mind you I knew the history of my GT500 going back to 1974 and it was drag raced by prior owners-not exactly people worried about emblems on a car and it was painted black over the grabber blue with none of the jambs color changed over. When I bought my GT350 in 1985 all 3 snake emblems(grill and rear qrtrs) were stolen off the car and just the original Shelby plaques left on so I understand the stolen snake problem.  Second pic below is of both emblems I'm talking about. Snake and Shelby plaque below off of a June 2 500 mile SCJ survivor as ref to the emblems I'm talking about. There are some things about these cars over 50 years later I just do not understand and I suspect nobody will with 100 percent certainty unless there is documentation out there like the blue strip shoft knobs and the letter Ed has from AO Smith to Dearborn about incorrect knobs being installed. I'd think if dealers did the emblems there would be a service letter plus a template on where to mount them sent to them. Gary

[Bob Gaines]

All good points for your perspective. Now I will give you mine. My first introduction to a Shelby was my sister's husband that bought a Black Jade 69 GT500 fastback in early 1969 from a individual who got drafted right after his new car purchase. I was immediately awestruck. Unfortunately I don't remember the VIN.This was before my fascination for Shelby factory details developed. That car had just the snake. My best friend's father was a Ford car salesman at one of the local Ford dealerships that sold Shelby's. We hung around the dealership a lot in 1969 through 1970 to satisfy our Shelby infatuation. I only remember Shelby's with the single snake on the cars that went through there or others seen driving around town. In fact KC had two Shelby dealers plus ones that ended up on non Shelby dealers showroom floors. KC ended up with quite a few Shelby's running around town.I listened to the theft story from one of the pre deliver mechanics at the dealership. I don't remember seeing Shelby's in KC or surrounding area with the added Shelby or Cobra emblem until years later outside our area.I don't believe the lower Shelby or Cobra emblem plaques were taken off by dealers just not installed for whatever reason at the Dealership. As for templates for placement the ones I saw installed were always done freehand and thought that was just the way it was done. I never saw a rear antenna being installed but figured it was done freehand placement the same way by the pre delivery staff. That thought was reinforced years later at car shows with 69/70 fastbacks all parked in a row and looking down the line of antennas and instead of all in the same place they were in a variety of locations inches apart.  I was told back then that the cars initially came with emblems (in my case the snake emblems) and then because of theft the factory stopped adding them instead sending them along with the car to be added by the dealership. I had no reason to think otherwise. It was only some years later that I found out that the added Shelby or Cobra emblem plaques were also a expected variation that some dealers added and some didn't. I can also understand why some Shelby's at dealer discretion could have had the snake and other emblems left completely off although I never saw one like that in the wild. I have seen the AO Smith holding lot pictures showing cars with emblems so that confirms that they at least initially the emblem or emblems were installed there. I believe if AO Smith always installed the emblems the cars would end up all looking one way. To me evidence supports the initially installed by AO Smith then later because of theft etc. it was left up to Dealers to install whatever emblems ended up on the cars. That is my reasoning because of my personal experience. I can understand others can have different views.   

[Coralsnake]

I will post the Smith drawings this afternoon

[Bob Gaines]

I will post the Smith drawings this afternoon

FYI I don't dispute that there were templates or drawings for placement of different items meant for dealers to install just that in many cases those drawings and templates were not used by the installing personal for whatever reason. Speed and personal taste are a couple reasons that come to mind.   

[Coralsnake]

I have never seen anything to indicate the emblems were dealer installed.

My position is they were intended to be installed by AOSmith.

If they were missing, then they either did not add them or they were removed.

[Coralsnake]

Original assembly line drawing of emblems

I have several very early "survivors" in my files, that have the emblems installed. While I cant vouch for these, this is how I form my opinion they should be there

[SCJSTU]

Good stuff ya'll

[Bob Gaines]

Original assembly line drawing of emblems

I have several very early "survivors" in my files, that have the emblems installed. While I cant vouch for these, this is how I form my opinion they should be there

The assembly line drawings don't appear to be absolute gospel given the vintage pictures that Gary posted that are not like the drawings. I would suggest that instead it could suggest that they are what was meant by the factory however a dealer could install in what ever combination they wanted if not there when delivered. It is less likely that factory installed emblems as in the drawings would be taken off and re installed by a dealer in a pattern like in the vintage pictures. I for one only very rarely saw that drawing pattern on a fastback. I think it looks too busy with all three emblems but that is just me. In my area it was typically just the snake on the roof area or with the emblem underneath the snake on the fastback. Just what was typical in my area back when the cars were new. The convertible I saw ether the snake on the rear quarter or with the snake and lower plaque emblem. Regardless a variety of patterns are acceptable from a historical stand point IMO. 

[shelbymann1970]

Bob I think the position of the snake on my car if you moved it lower it wouldn't fit. Maybe that was the intial using the same snake but it didn't look right that low on the quarter so they made 2 different snakes. I found that out at Columbus one year from a guy who was the "emblem" guy with display cases of all types of emblems all NOS. He showed me the difference and I bought all his convertible emblems. That was the eighties and he only had a few. This is a subject that really hasn't been discussed much like 4 speed distributors in 70 GT350s.
Pete, thanks for expanding on original cars and emblems. Thanks for the drawings.
 

[shelbymann1970]

............... Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do.

Yes. Guess a kid stealing one could have grabbed them from all three if they were parked close enough to one another at the dealership or on the transporter when ever it travel from or was parked for the night. Just another possibility since we're exploring them

When I bought my car in 1985 it had the original grill emblem mounted with the snake broken off of it. Original "SHELBY" emblems(taped off for the repaint and pitted) but missing the snakes above them. Historical photos of my car show the snakes and SHELBY emblem as posted before.