French 1966 Carroll Shelby Interview

[Bob Gaines]

Chuck told me no on a number of occasions and told you yes. That makes it more confusing then clear IMHO.

[s2ms]

At the 41 second mark of the film where Carroll pulls up to a Black with White side stripe, 10 spoke 66 GT350, that car could be 6S2020 or 6S1750 as they were Shelby Company cars.

In the still shot of OP it does not look Black, but appears to be Black in the film.

Just Cool to think that it could be.

Agree the 66 in that shot is either black, or green which can also appear very dark.

Gotta dig that groovy opening tune!

[SFM6S087]

Chuck told me no on a number of occasions and told you yes. That makes it more confusing then clear IMHO.

It's not confusing to me. Even if we discount Chuck's word, all the evidence I've been able to dig up over the past few years indicates that S.A. installed the Shelby engine components, at least through the end of 1966 production. And the video that spawned this thread supports that. Yes, that "could" be staged, but I don't think so. Not when combined with all the other evidence.

I have:

Howard Pardee and his documents
Bruce Junor (production line manager at S.A. back in the day)
Some S.A. line workers
The DSOs
The engine tags & decals
This French video

Even your Intra-Company Communication and the black painted intakes (when put into the time-line of events) support my conclusion.

If you have evidence beyond this please let me know. I'm ready to change my mind if that's where the facts lead.

Steve

[Wedgeman]

I vaguely recall someone posting somewhere  years ago about SA selling Cast Iron 4V 289 Intakes & Autolite 4V Carbs dirt cheap. If confirmed..wouldn't that verify that work was done at SA ....?

[s2ms]

Thanks Wedgie for posting the film link originally on FB to get the ball rolling!

The film makes me wonder if any still photos were taken at the same time. They would be better resolution and perhaps even in color.

[Bob Gaines]

I vaguely recall someone posting somewhere  years ago about SA selling Cast Iron 4V 289 Intakes & Autolite 4V Carbs dirt cheap. If confirmed..wouldn't that verify that work was done at SA ....?

That is well known to many early Shelby aficionado's. Since your not familiar FYI That was in 65 vintage mags and were black paint intakes ,exhaust manifolds etc .Of course black intakes signify's 65 production . Later Ford memos to SA documenting the requests for expected volume so that Ford could get the highrise intakes etc. on hand at the Cleveland engine plant is what has driven the consensus of opinion for that time period being the change over. Another is a early snafu involving the engine plant painting the aluminum intakes engine color by mistake which also confirms Fords involvement with the installation. We do know that SA had to install at least the intakes at that point until Ford could figure out a procedure to not paint them.  The footage in the video posted raises more questions then answers IMO because it appears to come after the time that SA was waiting for Ford to get the engine production issue figured out. It is undeniable that Ford did the conversions at some point. The discussion is about pinning down the time line better.   

[J_Speegle]

I vaguely recall someone posting somewhere  years ago about SA selling Cast Iron 4V 289 Intakes & Autolite 4V Carbs dirt cheap. If confirmed..wouldn't that verify that work was done at SA ....?

Yes I posted an illustrated ad of that. Not sure if it's been since the crash. Will post it again later today.  Believe the date when the ad was placed below was before the period the film was shot during. Posted this before but it may have been before the forum crash




Believe the reselling to individuals was a pain and not successful as no other ads followed that I'm aware of. Instead (like often happens) the parts were either scrapped or after the conversion of the engine started to take place at Ford there was none of these parts (still had others that were removed from the cars) was not needed

[Coralsnake]

Do I see a ghost image of the pony corral in the grille?

[s2ms]

I vaguely recall someone posting somewhere  years ago about SA selling Cast Iron 4V 289 Intakes & Autolite 4V Carbs dirt cheap. If confirmed..wouldn't that verify that work was done at SA ....?

An example from the 65 GT350 website:

[69mach351w]

Lol, the carburetor alone today would cost you 20X that now

[J_Speegle]

An example from the 65 GT350 website:

Thanks Dave forgot I had that one also (the Shelby one) Believe both were during 65 production

[Side-Oilers]

What kind of plane is next to the hanger when CS pulls up in the Cobra?  Cessna 182?

I've tried to look up the tail #N52450 but all I can find is a 182 built in 1973, so obviously is not this same craft.

[s2ms]

Thanks Dave forgot I had that one also (the Shelby one) Believe both were during 65 production

Jeff, never noticed this before but...on the ad you posted the carb is mounted backwards on the intake!

[SFM6S087]

I vaguely recall someone posting somewhere  years ago about SA selling Cast Iron 4V 289 Intakes & Autolite 4V Carbs dirt cheap. If confirmed..wouldn't that verify that work was done at SA ....?

That is well known to many early Shelby aficionado's. Since your not familiar FYI That was in 65 vintage mags and were black paint intakes ,exhaust manifolds etc .Of course black intakes signify's 65 production . Later Ford memos to SA documenting the requests for expected volume so that Ford could get the highrise intakes etc. on hand at the Cleveland engine plant is what has driven the consensus of opinion for that time period being the change over. Another is a early snafu involving the engine plant painting the aluminum intakes engine color by mistake which also confirms Fords involvement with the installation. We do know that SA had to install at least the intakes at that point until Ford could figure out a procedure to not paint them.  The footage in the video posted raises more questions then answers IMO because it appears to come after the time that SA was waiting for Ford to get the engine production issue figured out. It is undeniable that Ford did the conversions at some point. The discussion is about pinning down the time line better.

I submit that the only time Ford installed the Shelby engine components was during a short test run. Resulting in the few late 1965 and early 1966 GT350's that received black painted intakes. Bruce Junor has stated that having Ford install those items was tried, but the job went back to Shelby American. Other than that trial run, I can find no evidence that Ford installed the Shelby engine accessories for any of the other 1965-66 cars.

I won't post my entire 8 page file here. But I will attempt a summary.

I have Chuck Cantwell, Howard Pardee (1965-66 Registrar), Bruce Junor (production line manager at SA back in the day), and several SA line workers who actually did the work, who ALL say that Shelby American installed the Shelby engine accessories at least through the end of 1966 production. We can leave Chuck out of this if you wish, since you heard something different from him than I heard. But that still leaves me with several people in a good position to know, who all say SA installed the 1965-1966 engine accessories.

Here's a rough timeline of events & documents that I'm aware of.

•   May 7, 1965 – Ford issues an Intra-Company Communication that has an "example" that shows "plans" to have Ford start installing the aluminum intakes and some rear axle items.
•   June 16, 1965 – SA places DSO 71-2510 requesting that Ford delete the standard 289HP engine (C5ZE-6007-D554J) and add engine C5ZE-6007-SE370. This is almost certainly a 289HP with Shelby accessories already installed. And the "SE" in the part number probably stands for "Shelby Engine."
•   Sometime after June 16, 1965 (exact date unknown) – A document Howard Pardee has shows that Ford denied the request on DSO 71-2510 and instead installed standard 289HP engines into the cars in that order.
•   September 17, 1965 – SA places DSO 71-2601 for the first cars that will be 1966 chassis and built into full specification 1966 GT350s. This order has no mention of deleting the standard 289HP and replacing it with one having Shelby components already installed.
•   Sometime after September 17, 1965 – Howard Pardee indicates that all the DSOs subsequent to DSO 71-2601 have no mention of deleting the standard 289HP and adding one with the Shelby components already installed.
•   Date Unknown – Beyond the DSO's discussed here, Howard Pardee has other documents showing that SA requested that Ford install the Shelby engine accessories, but Ford denied that request.

Now top all that off with the video that started this thread and I think it's a pretty good case for S.A. installing those engine components through the end of 1966.

If you have other evidence PLEASE post it. I honestly want to see it. I'm ready to learn something new.

Steve

This note added on 4/11/20 - In reply #50 I posted pictures of two of the documents mentioned above.

[Shelby_r_b]

Thanks as always, Steve for the confirmation and information to back it up. 👍🏻