289 Hi-Po timing chain

[roddster]

    I just ordered a new Cloyes timing chain set for my 67 GT 350 from Summit.  Seems it isn't going to work due to the extra crankshaft counter weight the Hi-Po's have.  Summit lists 29 different sets.  None say specifically for the 289 Hi-PO.  Yes, they do say small block Ford.
  OK, now what?  Any part number assistance is appreciated.
 

[s2ms]

Cloyes S351 is the HiPo crank gear which is about as hard to find as NOS C3OZ-6306-A Ford. Still have the original? It may well be still good to use. The chain is Cloyes C358, cam gear is Cloyes S406T.

A couple options on ebay now:

NOS crank gear: https://www.ebay.com/itm/373057775829

Aftermarket kit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264695201648

[pbf777]

     If you have your original gear set and it's still in reasonable condition, perhaps you might just buy the chain, part #C358, which is apparently still available, and be O.K..  Realize that most of these cars aren't being driven that much anymore so "some" wear exhibited on the gears may not really be of any real concern.

     Also, I think the cam gear part number is/was #S350 for use with the "C" spacer, (I believe the S406T is for without the "C" spacer?) and this with the crank gear #S351 both no longer available from Cloyes.

     I have in the past re-machined the non HI-Po application crank-gears to allow retention of the counter weight, (and also for the "C" spacer)but I can't recall what the problem was that was encountered in fitment?  I think it was the double roller chains' overhang of the crank gear wanting to scrub the hatchet, which was solved by repositioning the timing set forward "some", which then required deletion of the crank oil slinger and narrowing of the fuel pump eccentric "some" for clearance of the timing cover (although not preferred, one could probably just double up on the timing cover gasket instead), with other than this additional task, no difficulties were encountered (that I remember anyway).     

     Scott.

     

[jk66gt350]

I have seen information that suggests that the correct ford part number for the hipo timing chain is C30Z-6268-A.  Is that not correct? 

[roddster]

  So far, thanks for these replies.  I bought a Cloyes 9-1135 (double roller) timing set.  In the past 24 hours I have slipped it together and yes, the double roller chain will rub the 289 Hi-Po counterweight.  I also measured the chain that was in the car.  It is 0.635 wide, the new Cloyes double roller is 0.890 wide.
     So it seems if I buy a chain set with the chain that is not a double roller I can have the crank gear milled to fit in and not have a chain that will rub the extra counterweight.  The thickness of the counterweight flange is 0.154.  Seems to me there might be room between the chain and the counterweight.  I'll keep us posted on the solution.
   One reason I'd like a new set (both gears and chain) is due to the car being now 52 years old, and this is the 2nd chain I've put in.  The first one was the lousy plastic/aluminum gear Ford put in when it was new.

[Dan Case]

Here's what I have purchased and used.
C358   chain, timing, Cloyes®
S351   sprocket, timing, crankshaft, Cloyes®
S350   sprocket, timing, camshaft, Cloyes®

Up to around 2008 you could order them from most national chain part stores and on line speed parts companies. I got mine at the local NAPA® parts store.

Genuine Ford service parts are around in obsolete Ford inventories but expensive. Individual Ford parts are offered on eBay® frequently. You might see postings on the High Performance Mustang site or the Fairlane Club of American site from time to time. The only Ford part you are not likely to see is the engine assembly plant chains made by one supplier while most service parts were made by others.

[s2ms]

  So far, thanks for these replies.  I bought a Cloyes 9-1135 (double roller) timing set.  In the past 24 hours I have slipped it together and yes, the double roller chain will rub the 289 Hi-Po counterweight.  I also measured the chain that was in the car.  It is 0.635 wide, the new Cloyes double roller is 0.890 wide.
     So it seems if I buy a chain set with the chain that is not a double roller I can have the crank gear milled to fit in and not have a chain that will rub the extra counterweight.  The thickness of the counterweight flange is 0.154.  Seems to me there might be room between the chain and the counterweight.  I'll keep us posted on the solution.
   One reason I'd like a new set (both gears and chain) is due to the car being now 52 years old, and this is the 2nd chain I've put in.  The first one was the lousy plastic/aluminum gear Ford put in when it was new.

The Cloyes C358 chain and S406T cam gear are both still readily available, I believe the TRW and Melling parts have the same, or very similar numbers. The S406T cam gear is steel, not nylon tooth aluminum like OE.

[roddster]

  7/8/2020 The conclusion:
   Using Dan Case's numbers, I ordered a complete set from Summit, and the individual part numbers from Rock Auto.    Summit's came in a Cloyes box, R/A's in a Melling box.
  The part numbers cast into the gears - crank and cam- were the same.  And, neither crank gear is for a 289 HiPo with the front counterweight.  So, I had a very famous (in the Northwest Indiana area) machine shop take 0.150 off of the inward side of the crank gear.  AND, you also have to accurately drill a hole of 0.125 in it for the locator/drive pin.  This is a hardened gear.  You are not going to drill it with that harbor freight drill bit.
  So, every thing fits and is in alignment.
Disapointment: must be fifty years of wear on the supplier machiney as, there is between 1/4" to 3/8" of slop in the brand new chain(s).  Ford specs are no more than 1/2", so, I got to live with this.
  No further commentary or changes comming from me, its in there, and running fine.

[gt350hr]

   Trust me , you DO NOT want a chain with less play. The "slop" you note has literally no effect on performance BUT too tight of a chain WILL take out the front cam bearing and #1 main bearing. The C3OZ chain has double the stretch capability of a "modern" C358 chain. I have 5 of the original NOS C3OZ chains I will not use because of that. If anyone HAS to have one , mine are available for $ 30 ea shipped USPS priority flat rate. PM if you want one/all , I won't use them.
  Randy

[pbf777]

     Using Dan Case's numbers, I ordered a complete set from Summit, and the individual part numbers from Rock Auto.    Summit's came in a Cloyes box, R/A's in a Melling box.
  The part numbers cast into the gears - crank and cam- were the same.  And, neither crank gear is for a 289 HiPo with the front counterweight.

     Not to flog a dead horse, but rather to aid others down-the-road, but when supplying "Dan's numbers" to the two mail order/internet sales giants, what did you get?         

     Apparently not those numbers, as I stated previously the Cloyes numbers S350 & S351's are and have been for some time obsolete (and I contacted Cloyes today just to be sure they had not been re-instituted) , but again as I stated previously you can still get the chain as it fits other than the H.P. applications.

     And the same is true as far as Melling is concerned; I believe ( ) their numbers of these would have been S406 cam gear & S431 crank gear (both obsolete) with a S358 chain being still available.

     But I did realize that if one calls Summit (as I did!) and asks of the two N.A. Cloyes numbers, I was told first that they were "not available", buuuut, ............"we don't have them, but we can special order and drop-ship from the manufacturer", just give your credit card information!             

     And at Rock Auto on line, one types in the numbers, and the screen pops up with a different number "placed in your basket" for check-out!  They apparently just substitute the next closest product that "might fit", and perhaps as in the case here you won't send it back (you paying the freight to return it of course)!               

     In either case you'd get most of your monetary investment returned (sooner or latter) but these corrupt marketing schemes also cheat the honest retailers, who particularly when knowledgeable enough to advise one that the correct item is "not available", are then not rewarded with the sale of what might be the "as close as it gets sale", with the insight of possibly:

So, I had a very famous (in the Northwest Indiana area) machine shop take 0.150 off of the inward side of the crank gear.  AND, you also have to accurately drill a hole of 0.125 in it for the locator/drive pin.  This is a hardened gear.  You are not going to drill it with that harbor freight drill bit.
  So, every thing fits and is in alignment.

   Trust me , you DO NOT want a chain with less play. The "slop" you note has literally no effect on performance BUT too tight of a chain WILL take out the front cam bearing and #1 main bearing.

   
     +1!           

     Scott.


     

[Mike_Senar]

Hello,
  I just saw this topic while doing some research on these parts...   NAPA sells the chain (pt. # 9-358)  and the correctly indexed cam sprocket (pt. # S406T)!   They will be special order and no store will have them.
                                                                                                  Mike

[OldGuy]

Hello,
  I just saw this topic while doing some research on these parts...   NAPA sells the chain (pt. # 9-358)  and the correctly indexed cam sprocket (pt. # S406T)!   They will be special order and no store will have them.
                                                                                                  Mike

Mike, the "rare" one is the crank sprocket. It has been obsolete for quite a while.

Frank

[hertz1966]

There is a guy who is selling new 289 hipo timing chain sets on Ebay.

here is the link.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234315137705?hash=item368e4542a9:g:J7wAAOSwLcBhFpuL

It looks like he has the counter weight and is machining down the lower gear and adding the .125" hole with the roll pin to hold the counterweight into place.  He must have a set up, as the previous poster stated, this is a hardened gear probably around Rockwell 55 hardness.  Cutting down the gear is not too hard with a carbide insert but drilling the hole can be tricky.  You could email him on ebay to see if he would just sell the lower gear or make one up. 

Also I have seen NOS lower gears for sale on Ebay.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Tim

[Harris Speedster]

I think I may be able to find a true hipo set that I stashed about 50 years ago.
A Cloyes replaced the set, I ordered  a second set too >>> and whats cool, as I recall, it has two different notices in the box with the full set and a picture of the ford hatchet and crank gear.
I think this Cloyes set was cut for a hatchet?
Will look.
respectfully
John
Merry Christams