1 of 6 '70 GT500 convertibles.

[shelbymann1970]

Thanks gary  the specialed wedding caravan 10 years ago. We drove the cars together from donnas home town Ferdinand church to Huntingburg event center reception 15 miles stopping at 2 bars along the way. About 600 or so people were at the wedding.

Yeah those hard old tires would light up pretty easily when I pushed down on the gas.

Did he let you drive the purple Shelby since you own one?    Gary  Speaking of old tires my friend Seraphim drag raced his 69 original Boss 429 once back in the late 90s. He didn't like how the "repo" tires were on the car and bought a new set. Well in 2008 I date coded those repo tires for him as I thought about buying them for 500 bucks for my Shelby. Luckily he put them away. YEP they were 69 DATE CODED original F-60-15s.

[Bob Gaines]

Thanks gary  the specialed wedding caravan 10 years ago. We drove the cars together from donnas home town Ferdinand church to Huntingburg event center reception 15 miles stopping at 2 bars along the way. About 600 or so people were at the wedding.

Yeah those hard old tires would light up pretty easily when I pushed down on the gas.

Did he let you drive the purple Shelby since you own one?    Gary  Speaking of old tires my friend Seraphim drag raced his 69 original Boss 429 once back in the late 90s. He didn't like how the "repo" tires were on the car and bought a new set. Well in 2008 I date coded those repo tires for him as I thought about buying them for 500 bucks for my Shelby. Luckily he put them away. YEP they were 69 DATE CODED original F-60-15s.

I drove it down at Tulsa show one Saturday evening cruising around close to the convention hotel while Ed was holding court.Tony King had his purple Mach I there that year too.  Not really anywhere practical to get on it for more then a second I so can't report how stout the engine was .

[JohnB]

AUCTION RESULT

High Bid   USD $86,500 (Reserve Not Met)
Auction Ended   Monday, July 13 at 8:10pm
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[Greg]

Are these referred to as a 70 "carryover" car like the early 66's, or just 70 since they were all technically 69 carryover's?

[Coralsnake]

1966s are 1966s

1970s are 1970s

"Carryover" is a term invented to differentiate a group of cars that some people perceive to have a higher value.

[Shelby_r_b]

1966s are 1966s

1970s are 1970s

"Carryover" is a term invented to differentiate a group of cars that some people perceive to have a higher value.

Are we seriously going to go there, Pete?  Your response is reminiscent of your nemesis  . 

[Coralsnake]

The difference is I am willing to learn.

Let me know what is objectionable?

[pchmotoho]

Most people perceive a 66 carryover, continuation, 65 1/2 whatever they choose to call it worth a good deal more than a post 252 66.

Is the difference in price worth more than the differences between the two cars?  Thats up to the buyer and seller but yes the price difference is there. I know I would love to have one of the first 66 GT350s but that just me.

Ive seen seen 65s broken down into Venice / LAX, front battery / rear battery, double digit vin etc etc so why shouldn't their be a premium (which once again their most assuredly is) on an early 66 GT350 vs a later one?

I think these first 252 cars are very special.  For the record I own 1117. 

[Bigfoot]

Not directed at pchmotoho.




"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant....."

[Shelby_r_b]

Good question, Pete.  To me, what is questionable is saying, "'Carryover" is a term invented to differentiate a group of cars that some people perceive to have a higher value.'"

First, the term wasn't simply invented, as there were other names / terms used to identify the first 252 cars produced for the 1966 model year of Shelbys in the past (Holdover, Leftover, 65 1/2, etc.).  Different names have been in use for several decades, and it's my understanding that a (then) current group of owners wanted to coin a universal term to identify these specific cars, especially given there were several names being used.  So, they took a vote and decided to call them "Carryover" cars, based on the fact that the cars themselves started out as 1965 Mustangs (unlike any other 66 Shelbys), but were produced as 1966 Shelby GT350s.

Second, there are numerous items found on the first 252 1966 Shelby GT350s that either didn't carry over into the rest of the 66s, or were phased out early in production after these cars were finished (example:  Koni Shocks were installed on the first 252 GT350s for 66; however, they were phased out around car 6s952).  Here are some items as a sampling:

1965 Seat upholstery – All smooth; no "weave pattern" texture in the center as in 1966
1965 Door panels & hardware – Vertical upholstery pattern, not horizontal as in 1966
1965 Dash pad – No "eyebrows" in the center as in 1966
1965 Radio blockoff plate – Concave on the sides with 4 sharp corners, not convex on the sides with the 2 top corners rounded off as in 1966.
1965 Glove box door – Curved, not flat as in 1966
1965 Glove box liner – No bracket for the owner card as in 1966
1965 Glove box – No 4-way flasher switch in glove box like the other 1966 GT350s had
1965 Door hinge bolts – 3/8" diameter with 9/16" head and star washers. Not 5/16" diameter with 1/2″ heads and round washers as was common in 1966.
1965 Ford VIN on car chassis & engine (starts with 5R09K.....)
1965-style Shelby VIN tag. There were two VIN tag styles for the first two years of the GT350 – 1965-style and 1966-style. Carryovers have the 1965-style. The change to the 1966-style tag did not occur immediately with 6S253, but did happen within the next hundred or so vehicles.
1965 Dates on all date coded parts

Third, perception and reality are two different things.  It's true that value can be found in the eye of the beholder.  However, sales (both public and private) have shown that the first 252 cars sell for a premium over the other 1966 Shelby GT350s, with the exception of truly unique cars (Paxton, convertibles, etc.).  Without pulling a list of recent sales to compare the first 252 66 Shelbys, it's easier to point out that Hagerty values the first 252 66 Shelbys as such:

"For fastback: +35% for 1965 carry-over cars up to S/N 252". Given Hagerty tracks both sale prices and insured values, I take their input as solid in the eyes of the market.

Forth, for anyone interested in learning more about the first 252 cars (notice that I have not referred to them as "Carryover" since it's the car that is of value, not the name), here is a website that will provide much more background on these cars:

https://carryovergt350.com

Finally, I know that I'm basically telling multiple clockmakers how to read a clock, and it's my hope that this post will clear things up for some of those who are new to these specific cars.

Thanks!

[sfm5]

Anyone know what Carroll Shelby's position was?

[pchmotoho]

I have no idea but my guess is he never even thought about it or if he did he would've laughed that the issue even came up.

In one of the old registries it discusses the continuation cars and it does clearly say that they are 66s and nothing more. Once again though that is not the case today.

Maybe someone here can chime in on when they started seeing the early 66s recognized as unique.

[Shelby_r_b]

I have no idea but my guess is he never even thought about it or if he did he would've laughed that the issue even came up.

In one of the old registries it discusses the continuation cars and it does clearly say that they are 66s and nothing more. Once again though that is not the case today.

Maybe someone here can chime in on when they started seeing the early 66s recognized as unique.

That is very correct.  In fact, the latest registry "1966 Shelby Registry 2019 Edition" has multiple references and pictures showing some of the differences between the first 252 GT350s produced for 1966.  Pages 6 - 9 reference the first 252 quite a bit, and page 7 (the first sentence of the first complete paragraph) states, "The first 252 cars have come to be called "carryover" cars by owners and enthusiasts since the 1970s."

It's my accretion that the first 252 cars became more recognized as people became aware of the true differences versus other 66 GT350s.  And, I believe that much of the research completed (by people other than me  ) brought about a greater understanding of these first 66s, and also dispelled some of the myths that had been floated (i.e.; the first 252 66s were originally built as 1965 Shelby GT350s and then rebuilt as 1966 GT350s) which soured people (understandably so at the time) on these cars being seen as "different".

Good stuff!

[SFM6S087]

1966s are 1966s

1970s are 1970s

"Carryover" is a term invented to differentiate a group of cars that some people perceive to have a higher value.

Saying 1966s are 1966s is like saying 1965s are 1965s or 1967s are 1967s. We all know that certain cars within those years have different feature sets. The differences may not matter to you, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The carryovers are presented as being different because they are different.. Reply #43 points out some of those differences. Whether those matter to you or not is up to you. And whether those add or detract from the value is also an individual call.

I became aware that the first 252 1966 GT350's were different from the rest from an article by Rick Kopec back in the 70's. At that time I think he referred to them as leftover 65's, because their origin story had not been discovered yet. I liked their unique blend of '65 & '66 features and ended up buying one. That lead me to start doing more research on them. Some of my findings are on www.CarryoverGT350.com.

Oddly, after pointing out how the first 252 1966 GT350's were different from the rest, Rick later went on a rant about carryovers and how "a 1966 GT350 is just a 1966 GT350 – nothing more, nothing less," and accusing anyone who disagreed of being a greedy profiteer. The first half of that rant is not true, as proven by his own articles and the known facts about these cars. But the "greedy profiteer" part does have some merit. I bought my carryover in 1979 for love of the car – not for any perceived profit. And I still own it. But there have been people who have tried to pump up the resale value of their car by highlighting its status as a carryover. But I don't see that as any different than a 1965 GT350 seller who highlights his car as a "Venice car" or a "battery in the trunk car." Or a 1967 Shelby seller who demands a higher price because he has a rare, early "red light car." Are they also "greedy profiteers"?

When you write that, "Carryover" is a term invented to differentiate a group of cars that some people perceive to have a higher value," you make is sound like there was a profit motive involved in the coining of that term. That's not true. It had nothing to do with value. And it was agreed upon because, at one point in time, a variety of terms were being used to refer to these cars – some of them misleading. It was judged that the community needed to settle on a single, standardized term to be used when referring to these cars. The word carryover was chosen because it's short and it conveys something about the history of the cars – to "carry over" the Shelby American production line during Ford's retooling shutdown. And combining the two words into one represents the combining of 1965 and 1966 features into one car. Had the motive been to pump up the value of the cars I feel certain that "65 1/2" would have been chosen.

Of all the Shelby owners who trumpet the special features that set their cars apart from the rest, only the carryover owners get accused of claiming a difference that doesn't exist. An accusation that is demonstrably false. I wonder why that is.

Steve

[Coralsnake]

Thanks pchmotoho and shelbyrb

I first want to say the post was not meant to be inflammatory. I recognize the differences and the value.

I also understand all of the insightful 1966 commentary