67 GT500 engine id decal

[shelbydoug]

I am also working on having an engine decal made for my '67 GT 500, manual, no a/c and no thermactor.  Trying to verify factory timing.
Is it 8 degrees as the NPD sticker reflects in this thread or is it 6 degrees as found for 428 CJ cars?  Motor built designation is a D for Dearborn, thanks to Mr. Bob Gaines.
Trying to figure out font for the D and timing number?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks;
Mike

Mike ,I thought I sent you a picture of a sticker with the D ?

I'd like to see that one too.

[shelby1848]

Yes sir Bob I did receive the picture, however the company I am using was having trouble identifying the font.  They also questioned the timing number being correct as they only had made engine tags with the 6 degree timing number for 428 cars and I had no owners manual to refer to.  Appreciate your response to square me away on the correct number.  If this engine tag turns out well I will have a half dozen or so made and send them to those that might need one.

Thanks Mike

[J_Speegle]

Yes sir Bob I did receive the picture, however the company I am using was having trouble identifying the font.  They also questioned the timing number being correct as they only had made engine tags with the 6 degree timing number for 428 cars and I had no owners manual to refer to.  Appreciate your response to square me away on the correct number.  If this engine tag turns out well I will have a half dozen or so made and send them to those that might need one.

Thanks Mike

Found many times, since fonts go in and out of popularity and use, one has to instead draw the letter to get the original look. Many commercial places are not set up to do this and instead rely on stock or standard fonts in their system. The reason why many reproduction labels look off or in some cases not even close IMHO. Been through this a hundred times at least over the past thirty years and why I ended up doing my own artwork. Are you going for paper based like original or vinyl stickers? 

Good luck with your endeavors

[shelby1848]

Thanks Jeff for the reply.  Going with paper with a clear film over the top.  My computer skills are poor at best so I'm leaving it to the pros for help in recreating tag.  May need to do a couple of
iterations to get it correct.

Thanks

Mike

[67_1183]

I would like to offer a different narrative for consideration by those interested.

The base numerical engine id for the 428 engines used in the production 1967 GT 500s is 404 and 405.  This is the same numerical id as the 66-67 428 Police motors and this is the link to the Police Interceptor name.  To distinguish between 428 engines using the same numerical id but some different components, the GT 500 engines have the suffix A01 added.  Thermactor engines require different cylinder heads to accommodate the air injection system, those engines are identified by adding the prefix E (Emissions).

  404 A01 for manual transmission, no EECS.
E 404 A01 for manual transmission, with EECS.

  405 A01 for automatic transmission, no EECS.
E 405 A01 for automatic transmission, with EECS.

EECS = Engine Emission Control System, aka Thermactor.

Air conditioning systems require no change to the base engine configuration.  They are an accessory item the same as alternators or power steering pumps in that the brackets, bolts, pulleys and belts require no change to the engine id or tag.

The DSO/SVO/add-delete sheets, whatever your favorite name is for the multi-page documents that the assembly line used to start the process of converting the Mustang into a Shelby GT 500 confirm these alphanumeric designations as do the metal engine tags.

These were Ford built engines installed on a Ford assembly line and the metal and paper tags were used by the assembly line personnel (including QC) to ensure the correct engine/transmission assemblies were installed in the chassis.

I have some copies of the add-delete sheets and pictures of metal engine id tags to confirm most of this narrative. I have only one piece of corroborating evidence for the claim about the A/C systems.

I have previously posted to this forum a picture of the metal engine id tag of my car 67412F2A01183 and it is most definitely E 405 A01 with a date code of 6M (December 1966) for a January 26, 1967 SJ completion date.


Constructive discussion and evidence either in support of or against this narrative is welcomed.

[J_Speegle]

67_1183 Just to make clear your post. You believe that there were only two base codes (404 & 405) used on paper and aluminum engine ID tags?

And that the coding on each was either 6 or 7 digits long on the paper and aluminum tags?

Would be helpful if you posted the example from your car again in the thread

[Bob Gaines]

I would like to offer a different narrative for consideration by those interested.

The base numerical engine id for the 428 engines used in the production 1967 GT 500s is 404 and 405.  This is the same numerical id as the 66-67 428 Police motors and this is the link to the Police Interceptor name.  To distinguish between 428 engines using the same numerical id but some different components, the GT 500 engines have the suffix A01 added.  Thermactor engines require different cylinder heads to accommodate the air injection system, those engines are identified by adding the prefix E (Emissions).

  404 A01 for manual transmission, no EECS.
E 404 A01 for manual transmission, with EECS.

  405 A01 for automatic transmission, no EECS.
E 405 A01 for automatic transmission, with EECS.

EECS = Engine Emission Control System, aka Thermactor.

Air conditioning systems require no change to the base engine configuration.  They are an accessory item the same as alternators or power steering pumps in that the brackets, bolts, pulleys and belts require no change to the engine id or tag.

The DSO/SVO/add-delete sheets, whatever your favorite name is for the multi-page documents that the assembly line used to start the process of converting the Mustang into a Shelby GT 500 confirm these alphanumeric designations as do the metal engine tags.

These were Ford built engines installed on a Ford assembly line and the metal and paper tags were used by the assembly line personnel (including QC) to ensure the correct engine/transmission assemblies were installed in the chassis.

I have some copies of the add-delete sheets and pictures of metal engine id tags to confirm most of this narrative. I have only one piece of corroborating evidence for the claim about the A/C systems.

I have previously posted to this forum a picture of the metal engine id tag of my car 67412F2A01183 and it is most definitely E 405 A01 with a date code of 6M (December 1966) for a January 26, 1967 SJ completion date.


Constructive discussion and evidence either in support of or against this narrative is welcomed.

Can you post a picture or direct me to the portion of the DSO sheet in case it is not marked in the engine box. I have found the sheets not all the same from one set of sheets to the next and the ones I had handy simply had "special" in the engine box . I am assuming that is the area with the different 404 or 405 designation you are seeing but maybe you are seeing them in another spot.

[J_Speegle]

Can you post a picture or direct me to the portion of the DSO sheet in case it is not marked in the engine box. I have found the sheets not all the same from one set of sheets to the next and the ones I had handy simply had "special" in the engine box . I am assuming that is the area with the different 404 or 405 designation you are seeing but maybe you are seeing them in another spot.

Pulled a few and I think he's referring to the line item in the following pages where on paper the 428 base engine is substituted for the 390 specified on the front page and typically listed the a section to delete below the "as the 428" list.





I think that the confusion here is that the add/delete sheets are basically a paper exercise to assemble the cars as they wanted them built with the least issues and parts changed.


Like other things on the list parts were not assembled and replaced on the car but just paper. Don't believe these 404 and 405 engines assembles had parts removed and other ones installed. Just allot of work when they could assemble the final engine as planned. Because of this I don't believe these two engine identifications were ever assigned to real engines destined to become 428's installed in Shelby's or that the finished GT500 engines every were identified as 404 or 405 since they were different from the regular 428PI's


The issue pretty easy to confirm as I'm sure we have a fair number of unrestored or original GT500's that can confirm or post a picture of their car's aluminum ID tags.  Expect that they will match the cars VIN engine sequence as the one shown below does.  Likely have more examples but this one was quick and handy.

[67_1183]

Thank you for the responses.

Being a glutton for punishment, I will play along.

J_Speegle, 
  The partial DSO page you posted I recognize as page 6 of DSO 89-2609 for 121 units of 67410 Shelby VIN cars.  I have pictures of the metal engine tags of two of those vehicles.  VINs 2800 and 2940.  Both are 405 A01.

[J_Speegle]

J_Speegle, 
  The partial DSO page you posted I recognize as page 6 of DSO 89-2609 for 121 units of 67410 Shelby VIN cars.  I have pictures of the metal engine tags of two of those vehicles.  VINs 2800 and 2940.  Both are 405 A01.

Love to see them as well as other examples.

Playing along - What do you make of the one I posted?

Looking at my collection of pictures I now see the possibility of some being labeled as your referenced. Question for me after looking at the examples engines being labeled each way,  how many of one group or the other were there and what production period or periods are connected with each.

[shelbydoug]

For me this is a great and timely discussion BUT I think that documentation in the form of pictures of original engine tags AND engine labels are going to be the only way anyone is going to feel comfortable as to how the engines were built and delivered from the Ford assembly plant.

In speaking privately to others that are interested in this subject, it was emphasized to me that in the case of the'67 GT500, the engine is a "Special Interceptor" not just a "Police Interceptor".

It may be a mistake to presume that the identification of the two are the same?


As far as I know right now, Marti is the only one with the Ford documentation to produce accurate metal engine tags but it is questionable to me about the paper labels. I have seen several versions. There seems to be some disagreement on them? All I hear is "that is not an accurate reproduction" but they offer no accurate alternatives.
What is? No examples have been shown that I'm aware of. Just pictures of where the label was and remains of the adhesive.

Unfortunately it takes Marti MONTHS to do the tags and he is still closed down due to Covid.

I could get some closure here though? Maybe?

[shelbydoug]

Here is mine.

[430dragpack]

Here is the engine tag off of car #1847, GT500, 4-speed, no a/c, no thermactor.

[shelbydoug]

Good picture! May I ask, how was the tag oriented on the engine? Looks like so far they were all under the coil bracket but which way did it point?
I haven't seen any projecting to the front or evidence that they were bent down anywhere?
Your's is nice and flat.

[430dragpack]

Good picture! May ask, how was the tag oriented on the engine? Looks like so far they were all under the coil bracket but which way did it point?
I haven't seen any projecting to the front or evidence that they were bent down anywhere?
Your's is nice and flat.

Don't know about any of that, just had the photo saved from the sellers photos of the car.