67 GT500 engine id decal

[67_1183]

J_Speegle, 
  The partial DSO page you posted I recognize as page 6 of DSO 89-2609 for 121 units of 67410 Shelby VIN cars.  I have pictures of the metal engine tags of two of those vehicles.  VINs 2800 and 2940.  Both are 405 A01.

Love to see them as well as other examples.

Since the engine tag for 2940 is still posted on the VCM blog, let's start there so you can assess the originality.

http://blog.virginiaclassicmustang.com/2015/03/just-details1967-shelby-mustang-gt500_6.html

[430dragpack]

My dads is a 4-speed, no a/c, with thermactor.  I don't have the engine tag at my disposal, but here is the Add/delete paperwork with a 404-A01 code.  Car 2940 is an automatic and is a 405-A01 code, so does that mean anything?  404 = 4-speed engine trans assembly, 405 = auto assembly?

[Bob Gaines]

I have always assumed that the tag seen in the picture was 401 even though I believe this is a Erics automatic car. It may stand for be A01 instead.

[Bob Gaines]

This longer weathered paper tag on a 67 could hold a longer engine identification series. There could be two different ways the cars were identified also. Given the Shelby unique engine compared to all other years there may have been a transition from one way to another. The two different engine codes on the two different metal engine tags seen to conflict with each other. That may or may suggest two ways.

[430dragpack]

I find it interesting that my dads and Doug's Ford paperwork say "428 special interceptor engine 4-speed trans." and are both 404-A01 codes.  The Ford paperwork Jeff posted doesn't say which transmission next to the engine designation and is a 405-A01.  Jeff, Do you know if it is an automatic car?
Why would it say "4-speed" if all weren't meant to be, thus one engine code, 404-A01, for the 4-speed engine and transmission assembly?  I assume there would need to be 2 different engine codes for the flywheel components, especially since the stick bell housings have blue overspray on them.
404 and 405 are 428 PI engine codes, which is what the very basic part of the engine assembly needed to be/started out life as, like member 67-1183 said in his earlier post.

This is a 66-67 427 Fairlane engine id decal with transistor ignition, hence the "T" for that ignition system and no "T" for standard points system.  As 67-1183 said, "E" was for thermactor, so is it possible that the correct decal for a 4-speed car with thermactor being "E404 A01"?  Very similar layout to the 427's "T362 S01". 

[csheff]

What's the difference between the 7 E and 7 C on the tag?

[430dragpack]

What's the difference between the 7 E and 7 C on the tag?

Month of manufacturing, C= March, E=May.  7 is the year, in this case 1967.

[shelbydoug]

WHERE did the thought that the paper tag engine code should match the model designation in the Shelby VIN tag come from?

The 500 that Vern has is pretty original but I don't see a paper tag on the head to compare to?

At 50 years out, EVEN IF you find a car that is original, IT may be an example of how difficult it will be to find ANY surviving original paper tags? It's difficult to find original cars that haven't been touched.

Considering the data on those spec sheets, AND the designation on what appears to be original metal engine tags, it's a tough argument to disagree that the paper and metal information is different? Also as to what information should be on both as well as the configuration on them?

I'd encourage anyone to come forward with any documentation they may have. The purpose isn't to be the one who is right, it is to find the right information.

This discussion isn't dead. If anything it's just beginning.



I've got pics from 35 years ago that might even have glimpses of the tags but first problem is where the heck I filed them. Some are prints. Some are slides. Yikes. This may take some time?

[shelbydoug]

I find it interesting that my dads and Doug's Ford paperwork say "428 special interceptor engine 4-speed trans." and are both 404-A01 codes.  The Ford paperwork Jeff posted doesn't say which transmission next to the engine designation and is a 405-A01.  Jeff, Do you know if it is an automatic car?
Why would it say "4-speed" if all weren't meant to be, thus one engine code, 404-A01, for the 4-speed engine and transmission assembly?  I assume there would need to be 2 different engine codes for the flywheel components, especially since the stick bell housings have blue overspray on them.
404 and 405 are 428 PI engine codes, which is what the very basic part of the engine assembly needed to be/started out life as, like member 67-1183 said in his earlier post.

This is a 66-67 427 Fairlane engine id decal with transistor ignition, hence the "T" for that ignition system and no "T" for standard points system.  As 67-1183 said, "E" was for thermactor, so is it possible that the correct decal for a 4-speed car with thermactor being "E404 A01"?  Very similar layout to the 427's "T362 S01".

Are you SURE that tag is original and not someone else's interpretation of what the tag should be? I don't see the jagged edges on the ends?

There is a lot of misinformation on the web even if it is well intended.

[430dragpack]

I find it interesting that my dads and Doug's Ford paperwork say "428 special interceptor engine 4-speed trans." and are both 404-A01 codes.  The Ford paperwork Jeff posted doesn't say which transmission next to the engine designation and is a 405-A01.  Jeff, Do you know if it is an automatic car?
Why would it say "4-speed" if all weren't meant to be, thus one engine code, 404-A01, for the 4-speed engine and transmission assembly?  I assume there would need to be 2 different engine codes for the flywheel components, especially since the stick bell housings have blue overspray on them.
404 and 405 are 428 PI engine codes, which is what the very basic part of the engine assembly needed to be/started out life as, like member 67-1183 said in his earlier post.

This is a 66-67 427 Fairlane engine id decal with transistor ignition, hence the "T" for that ignition system and no "T" for standard points system.  As 67-1183 said, "E" was for thermactor, so is it possible that the correct decal for a 4-speed car with thermactor being "E404 A01"?  Very similar layout to the 427's "T362 S01".

Are you SURE that tag is original and not someone else's interpretation of what the tag should be? I don't see the jagged edges on the ends?

There is a lot of misinformation on the web even if it is well intended.

It's not an original, an original was used to make it. Jagged edges could/should be added before being applied.  I agree about tons of misinformation.

[shelbydoug]

Original $100 bills are usually used to model counterfeits after but Franklin shouldn't be winking.

Little details tend to get changed.

The original is the document. The "copy" isn't.

This IS part of the issue I/"we" are having.


Bob's thought about there possibly being several versions originally has to be seriously considered?
It's more a problem for him since this discussion is more likely to have a flurry of '67 GT500's showing up in Concourse and showing tape labels?

He better not blaime me. 

[Bob Gaines]

Original $100 bills are usually used to model counterfeits after but Franklin shouldn't be winking.

Little details tend to get changed.

The original is the document. The "copy" isn't.

This IS part of the issue I/"we" are having.


Bob's thought about there possibly being several versions originally has to be seriously considered?
It's more a problem for him since this discussion is more likely to have a flurry of '67 GT500's showing up in Concourse and showing tape labels?

He better not blaime me. 

Too late.

[shelbydoug]

Original $100 bills are usually used to model counterfeits after but Franklin shouldn't be winking.

Little details tend to get changed.

The original is the document. The "copy" isn't.

This IS part of the issue I/"we" are having.


Bob's thought about there possibly being several versions originally has to be seriously considered?
It's more a problem for him since this discussion is more likely to have a flurry of '67 GT500's showing up in Concourse and showing tape labels?

He better not blaime me. 

Too late.

THERE IT IS! I KNEW IT!   

[430dragpack]

Original $100 bills are usually used to model counterfeits after but Franklin shouldn't be winking.

Little details tend to get changed.

The original is the document. The "copy" isn't.

This IS part of the issue I/"we" are having.


Bob's thought about there possibly being several versions originally has to be seriously considered?
It's more a problem for him since this discussion is more likely to have a flurry of '67 GT500's showing up in Concourse and showing tape labels?

He better not blaime me. 

Too late.

THERE IT IS! I KNEW IT!

Play nice , Fellas!!  .   It's kinda like "How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie roll center of a Tootsie pop??...The world may never know!!"

[67_1183]

I think that the confusion here is that the add/delete sheets are basically a paper exercise to assemble the cars as they wanted them built with the least issues and parts changed.


Like other things on the list parts were not assembled and replaced on the car but just paper. Don't believe these 404 and 405 engines assembles had parts removed and other ones installed. Just allot of work when they could assemble the final engine as planned. Because of this I don't believe these two engine identifications were ever assigned to real engines destined to become 428's installed in Shelby's or that the finished GT500 engines every were identified as 404 or 405 since they were different from the regular 428PI's

J_Speegle,

  I do not consider the DSO/SVO/add-delete sheets as a "paper exercise".  They are the equivalent of an Engineering Change Order (ECO) or Engineering Change Notice (ECN) and are a necessary and sufficient document to initiate a deviation from standard process on the assembly line.

The process was started by entering into the Ford build system S into the engine code in the Vehicle Order Image when initiating the order for the vehicles that would become the GT 500.  The Marti reports show that what would become the GT 500 was entered into the build process as a 390 Mustang.

In the case of DSO 84-2566 of which #1183 is one of those 32 units, the delete (implying do not install) is E 319 A, the emissions version of the 390 engine for automatic transmissions.

As stated in previously, constructive discussion and evidence either in support of or against this narrative is welcomed.