5S089 on Craigslist

[Vernon Estes]

Interesting how far off the vin is centered from cut out and how the star is not open with clean star in center. Does anyone have a photo of off center vins on other 65 gt350's? Also is that a silk screen tag? I can't tell if the letters are raised.

Not terribly uncommon to see. This one is more off center than usual though.

The pass side stampings are the most "off" on early 65s generally- being fully exposed and not under the fender as usual.

Kind regards,
Vern

[Vernon Estes]

I would also add to this thread that Howard Pardee is one of the most respected figures in this hobby.

The registry can make mistakes but the registrars do their best with what is supplied to them in terms of information on the cars. Personally, I cant imagine doing the job they do...trying to parse through the BS and the truth, trying to treat everyone and every car impartially, trying to be a resource for all in the hobby. I have come across so many examples of times where owners and general enthusiasts have contributed false information (positive and negative pertaining to the cars) to the registrars. It is a shame that it happens...but it happens all the time. Its a flaw of human nature that someone like a registrar has to TRY to combat on a daily basis.

Further, I cant even begin to imagine the amount of time they give so that all of us can be more well informed on the cars and their histories.

All that to say- IF what is written in the registry is untrue- I'm sure Howard is willing to correct the record. Ive personally helped histories of cars get corrected alongside Howard when it is determined that what is in the registry is not accurate. I am also certain that Howard would have had VERY good and what he determined to be reliable, factual information on the car before he wrote what is written in the car's entry.

Again, mistakes happen......but I think we can all start off by agreeing that a guy like Howard is not going to put a "hit job" on any car intentionally.

Kind regards,
Vern

[TA Coupe]

Are Philips headed bolts or screws correct for holding on the oil pan? I would not think you would be able to get enough torque on them without rounding them off. Also I find it hard to believe but the car was driven only slightly more than 500 miles a year on average. It states the car has 28,000 miles on it when the odometer shows over 29,000?

       Roy

[427hunter]

Interesting how far off the vin is centered from cut out and how the star is not open with clean star in center. Does anyone have a photo of off center vins on other 65 gt350's? Also is that a silk screen tag? I can't tell if the letters are raised.

Not terribly uncommon to see. This one is more off center than usual though.

The pass side stampings are the most "off" on early 65s generally- being fully exposed and not under the fender as usual.

Kind regards,
Vern

I so far have not been able to find a good 65 off set like this, also the star stamp does not look right (maybe it's paint) but it looks off, also the tag (maybe it's just the photo) but it looks flat not raised. It's interesting that these vin issues appear on a car that Howard says was modified for a big block.....

[carappraiser]

Hello everybody i am the seller of this car, and i would invite prospective purchasers to to come and inspect the car, i have a rack at the dealership and i will happily answer any questions, it would seem based upon an inspection by a knowledgable expert yesterday that the inner front sheet metal is factory original with correct date codes and factory spot welds. This would suggest that the information in the registry is incorrect. The shock towers have never been cut on this car. The VIN stamps are correct with the correct stars. If anyone has any questions please email me.
thanks
neil

[carappraiser]

Don't know if the person who wrote up the listing is part of the "uninformed", but why do some of these used musclecar dealers call the early Shelby's coupes?

no not uniformed the software that processes listings does not have a fastback button only coupe so thats why you see that

[Bob Gaines]

Are Philips headed bolts or screws correct for holding on the oil pan? I would not think you would be able to get enough torque on them without rounding them off. Also I find it hard to believe but the car was driven only slightly more than 500 miles a year on average. It states the car has 28,000 miles on it when the odometer shows over 29,000?

       Roy

Yes phillips head  screws were OE for the earlier cars. They transitioned later in 65 to the typical hex head. it probably transitioned when Ford started adding the Cobra items.  I  have a belief  the phillips head had to do with the tight clearance between the fastener and the oil pan sides when SA was installing oil pams. Trying to get a socket on the bolt head can be difficult. The philips head on the other hand provides easy access. You don't need a lot of torque on a oil pan gasket 10-15 pounds which can easily be obtained with the phillips head 

[chris NOS]

thank you "camp upshur " for letting us know the true about 089 ,i have been offered this car and i didn't go for it cause of the" 427, straight axel " story in the registry .For me the sfm plate looks original , and the ford stamping looks fine to me  too. 089 looks like  a nice car and i think it deserve no more suspicions , i agree to talk about a car for concours correctness , but not putting some shadow on it with out some personnal inspections from somebody with the knowledge ,"camp upshur"  inspected it and in 2020  the story about it should be corrected in the registry.   

[427hunter]

I sent a pm to the consigner and he said is going to post photo's in this thread of the date codes on the inner fenders, better photo's of the tag (also checking to see if the lettering is raised or not) and a clear photo of the exposed portion of the vin number.

No offense to "camp Upshur" but it would be very strange to disregard the registry and what we can see as potential issues based on his statement without any evidence to support it - in effect he is doing the same thing he is complaining about with the registry - making a statement without any proof.

I don't know why "Camp Upshur" has bad blood is with the registry, but on two 67's and one 66 that I looked to buy in the past, the information given was spot on correct and saved me from buying air cars. 

[Vernon Estes]

I agree with the above post. I don't think that you can simply discard the information in the registry entry short of extraordinary evidence. Again, I'll reiterate that generally things don't get included in the registry unless Howard believes he has reliable information to go off of. Even with proper date codes being supplied on the car by the seller (assuming they are posted)- that doesn't prove anything other than the car currently has the correct date codes in the front of the car. An example of "extraordinary evidence"- how about some pre-restoration photos?

That said, I want to make clear that I am, in no way whatsoever, motivated to cast dispersions about the car.  I have no motivations here other than to defend the registrar.

I'd recommend that anyone interested in a car like this to get in touch with guys who have owned and inspected many 65s. Those guys might be inclined to point out specific details on cars privately which they would feel are improper for sharing on a public forum.

Kind regards,
Vern

[camp upshur]

1. I hold the ideal of a Registry in high regard. I refer to it frequently;
2. The Registry is a published document, widely referenced with presumptive credibility, with a Registrar, put out by a for profit organization. It is widely quoted in other media and auctions as a definitive source;
3. I full realize the registrar cannot authenticate every 'voluntary' submission. And I am all for getting information 'out there' and have no problem in putting info out unchecked initially. However, I do feel there is a de minimus editorial duty of fact checking when specific *significant* issues are brought to the Registrar's attention. While not exactly a 'reposing special trust and confidence' the Registrar's imprimatur can destroy the fidelity of your car and it's resultant value which is one of the reasons the name of the Registrar (whomever it may be)  is accorded credibility and elan throughout our hobby;
4. My previous posting had three announced sources: the Registry, the SAAC forum, and my personal inspection.  I did not ask anybody to believe me: my post reports -with specificity-  what I saw, what the Registry and forum have printed and implores any interested parties to make there own analyses;
5. '427 Hunter' you need, like a big boy, to get out there and check for yourself before you question someone (such as I have done regarding the Registry's description of 5S089), but, as a courtesy, I will herein post some unpublished images if 5S089's shock towers/ front clip attachment detail.

Steve Algorri
SFM5S339

Addendum:
Vern, I will resist into being drawn in to any ad hominem duel. My concern is the fidelity of the Registry and the Registrar, whomever ever it may be. I bear no individual any animus. To the degree a name has been used it has been within a quoted quote, and/or penned by others. This is an important distinction. My concern is the relationship between the car and the Registry.  Steve

[427hunter]

1. I hold the ideal of a Registry in high regard. I refer to it frequently;
2. The Registry is a published document, widely referenced with presumptive credibility, with a Registrar, put out by a for profit organization. It is widely quoted in other media and auctions as a definitive source;
3. I full realize the registrar cannot authenticate every 'voluntary' submission. And I am all for getting information 'out there' and have no problem in putting info out unchecked initially. However, I do feel there is a de minimus editorial duty of fact checking when specific *significant* issues are brought to the Registrar's attention. While not exactly a 'reposing special trust and confidence' the Registrar's imprimatur can destroy the fidelity of your car and it's resultant value which is one of the reasons the name of the Registrar (whomever it may be)  is accorded credibility and elan throughout our hobby;
4. My previous posting had three announced sources: the Registry, the SAAC forum, and my personal inspection.  I did not ask anybody to believe me: my post reports -with specificity-  what I saw, what the Registry and forum have printed and implores any interested parties to make there own analyses;
5. '427 Hunter' you need, like a big boy, to get out there and check for yourself before you question someone (such as I have done regarding the Registry's description of 5S089), but, as a courtesy, I will herein post some unpublished images if 5S089's shock towers/ front clip attachment detail.

Steve Algorri
SFM5S339

Addendum:
Vern, I will resist into being drawn in to any ad hominem duel. My concern is the fidelity of the Registry and the Registrar, whomever ever it may be. I bear no individual any animus. To the degree a name has been used it has been within a quoted quote, and/or penned by others. This is an important distinction. My concern is the relationship between the car and the Registry.  Steve

Ha ha ha, you will "resist ad hominem attacks" and then you use them.... to quote the princess bride "You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."

[carappraiser]

Here are some of the front sheet metal date codes as requested
Neil

[carappraiser]

and some more

[carappraiser]

and the VIN tag that has raised letters. If anyone wants more pics let me know
thx
neil