R Model Heads, Cam and Intake

[shelbydoug]

I think he is referring to the C8FE boss 302 block?

I suspected that high compression was necessary to make the heads work? I'm not surprized that you were at 12:1 at all.

The leaded racing gas will also change the way things work and how you set everything up also.

I do remember seeing the starter smoke when trying to start a 11.5:1 289 hot. Not my preference for a street engine combination.

[pbf777]

The old "Ford Off Highway" book states that they are "similar" to the GT40 heads.

     Based on our experiences in porting both the the C6FE, C9OE & DOOE castings, I would agree perhaps with the word "similar", in a statement from Ford Motor CO. in the context of the period, with the understanding that maybe what they should have said was: For those of you not graced with our C6FE GT40 Race-Program cylinder heads the closest your able to get is going to be the production 351W cylinder head.          

     Scott.

[pbf777]

I do remember seeing the starter smoke when trying to start a 11.5:1 289 hot. Not my preference for a street engine combination.

    If one is not confident in the starter motor or the voltage supply circuit's capability in this scenario, then the addition of an ignition timing "start-retard" control devise or just the separation of the start/crank circuit with a separate ignition circuit this providing the opportunity for the starter motor to initiate the rotation process, and then activation of the ignition, and with the inertia value of the assembly already in motion and the stater motor at speed, the load on the starter motor itself and amperage draw is reduced.     

    Scott.

[gt350hr]

  Doug sees allot of challenges.

[Dan Case]

Our black Cobra is still using the 1963 model starter Shelby American installed in February 1964.  The prior owner in the late 1960s had the heads milled to get a higher SCR. When I measured SCR during service to deal with cracked original piston skirts I got an average of 11.6:1. When our other car's play engine was built in 2014 we specifically did 11.6:1 SCR. A stock rebuilt 1964 model starter was installed. Both engines start very easily cold and near instantly hot. Both use stock ignition and do just fine puttering along or out playing wide open throttle. We do add octane booster at fuel stops.

[gt350hr]

   Dan ,
      There is a black cloud that hangs over Doug's house in Jersey.

[shelbydoug]

I do remember seeing the starter smoke when trying to start a 11.5:1 289 hot. Not my preference for a street engine combination.

    If one is not confident in the starter motor or the voltage supply circuit's capability in this scenario, then the addition of an ignition timing "start-retard" control devise or just the separation of the start/crank circuit with a separate ignition circuit this providing the opportunity for the starter motor to initiate the rotation process, and then activation of the ignition, and with the inertia value of the assembly already in motion and the stater motor at speed, the load on the starter motor itself and amperage draw is reduced.     

    Scott.

Sure. Now there are solutions that didn't exist 35 years ago. At least to the "common folk" determined to be un-deserving by Ford to get their double secret racing parts.

It is interesting to me, that those small block GT40 heads from the '60s race program never showed up in aluminum? The 427's did. Why not the 289's?

Aluminum was not exactly a new material to the industry. GM had an all aluminum 221 way back in 60 or 61. That engine design they sold to Rover who continued to refine it.

Lots of head scratching about procedures and parts availability. Chevy NEVER had issues with selling you ANYTHING that you wanted. With Ford you needed to go through a CIA security check and I suspect be blood related to the "Royal Family"

The killer is Ford GIVING the racers like Nicholson aluminum blocks.

As Brando said in "On The Waterfront", "you were my brother, I could have been a contender, you should have looked out for me?"


As much as I love Ford, there is no love lost between us. I don't particularly appreciate being classified as "one of them, yuck". "Just give 'the kid' a cookie. He'll go away and be quite".

[pbf777]

It is interesting to me, that those small block GT40 heads from the '60s race program never showed up in aluminum? The 427's did. Why not the 289's?

Aluminum was not exactly a new material to the industry. GM had an all aluminum 221 way back in 60 or 61. That engine design they sold to Rover who continued to refine it.

The killer is Ford GIVING the racers like Nicholson aluminum blocks.

     I believe the 427 alloy heads were a desperate attempt in a weight reduction program for racing as was the other alloy blocks for say Nicholson, and it was understood that the long term durability expected in production instances where cast iron was utilized and well refined to provide this expectation, was not anticipated, nor would any of these beneficiaries really complain.     

     In the case of GM's Buick 215 & Olds F85 engine one nail in its' coffin may well have been associated with the difficulties GM endured with the poor castings and their propensity to develop fluid leaks.  In era, a friend who was a mechanic at the local Pontiac dealer said that on these they had been advised to fill the cooling systems with straight anti-freeze to try and halt any water induced corrosion coupled with the casting porosity causing leakages.     

     There just was a lot yet to be learned in the casting of aluminum blocks & heads.   

     Scott.

     

[SFM5S000]

Then they must work well on those stroked Dart blocks.  However, won't work on Fords new Boss block.  Go figure!

I know I'm replying to a post a little ways back, but I run said modern M-6010-Boss 302 block with R model HP 289 heads. And because the block requires .500" fasteners. I had all the head bolt holes enlarged to .530" to accommodate .500" ARP studs with 12 point nuts and washers.
I see what you mean by the water passages. I run the Felpro 1021 head gaskets with no additional sealer, studs torqued to 110lbs. No leaks...

Cheers,
~Earl J

[CSX2259]

     "This is not recommended due to the proximity of the lower/outside water relief holes on the deck of the M-6010-BOSS302 block deck being awfully close the outside perimeter of the O.E. production cylinder heads (including the aluminum "Y" & some earlier "X" heads) this perhaps not providing surfaces to adequately clamp the head gasket for sealing or retention."

We never ran into an issue with this configuration.

[pbf777]

We never ran into an issue with this configuration.

    Yeah, I also inject that with "luck"............, but next time you have the head off, dykem the blocks' deck, place the cylinder head upon (less gasket), trace the lower/outer head perimeter profile, now remove the cylinder head and look at the available margin available to clamp the gasket        

    Generally you'll find it's kinda narrow, if not breached (that would be with bad "luck"), the several machined semi-circle reliefs cut into this perimeter line are of particular concern, bordering several of the blocks' water reliefs.      

     Scott.

[shelbydoug]

It is interesting to me, that those small block GT40 heads from the '60s race program never showed up in aluminum? The 427's did. Why not the 289's?

Aluminum was not exactly a new material to the industry. GM had an all aluminum 221 way back in 60 or 61. That engine design they sold to Rover who continued to refine it.

The killer is Ford GIVING the racers like Nicholson aluminum blocks.

     I believe the 427 alloy heads were a desperate attempt in a weight reduction program for racing as was the other alloy blocks for say Nicholson, and it was understood that the long term durability expected in production instances where cast iron was utilized and well refined to provide this expectation, was not anticipated, nor would any of these beneficiaries really complain.     

     In the case of GM's Buick 215 & Olds F85 engine one nail in its' coffin may well have been associated with the difficulties GM endured with the poor castings and their propensity to develop fluid leaks.  In era, a friend who was a mechanic at the local Pontiac dealer said that on these they had been advised to fill the cooling systems with straight anti-freeze to try and halt any water induced corrosion coupled with the casting porosity causing leakages.     

     There just was a lot yet to be learned in the casting of aluminum blocks & heads.   

     Scott.

   

If you are referring to the questionable quality of the aluminum 427 heads I tend to agree but the iron heads have many of the same issues.

They both crack between the valve seats. They both can have gasket sealing issues, etc.

"Racing improves the breed". It's not like Ford wasn't casting aluminum intakes, water pumps, etc.

I have the pictures of the Chevy aluminum engines leaking everything all over the place at their first appearances at I think Daytonna in '65 or 66? The issue there was no one knew how to make a head gasket for them, amongst other gaskets.

My Ford C6FE-6049-B aluminum heads were ridiculous. Just sitting on the engine stand and priming the oil pump, the head gasket would leak OIL out the back corners. Even the Felpro's wouldn't hold.
Considering they were originally run with steel shim head gaskets is just impossible for me to believe.

Considering how many 427 heads eventually fail between the valves, it's not the aluminum's fault, it's just a poor original design.

[gt350hr]

   Doug ,
       There is at least "one" set of small block , C6FE aluminum head castings "out there" . The late Don Roberts ( rip) had a "raw , un machined" pair that were sold after his passing. The problem would be in the material integrity "IF" the iron molds were used. C6FE small block heads were notorious for cracking externally above the lower head bolts , and an aluminum version would be a bigger contender for that issue. I can't be certain that the castings were from '66 as there was a "continuation" head cast 20 or so years ago.
    BTW a smoking starter is typically caused by a poor ground.

[pbf777]

   as there was a "continuation" head cast 20 or so years ago.
   

     Those "continuation" heads in my past experience can often be identified by the valve center lines between the intake and exhaust on one of the end cylinders (forget which end?     ) being approximately .020" closer together than the rest.     

     I think if I remember right it was Allen Root who provided the machine work?   

     As far as period aluminum cylinder heads for the S.B.F. I'm looking for a set of the Gurney-Weslake/Eagle cylinder heads (and related parts) for my TVR!  Anybody got any?         I could be your bestest pal!     

     Scott.

[shelbydoug]

   Doug ,
       There is at least "one" set of small block , C6FE aluminum head castings "out there" . The late Don Roberts ( rip) had a "raw , un machined" pair that were sold after his passing. The problem would be in the material integrity "IF" the iron molds were used. C6FE small block heads were notorious for cracking externally above the lower head bolts , and an aluminum version would be a bigger contender for that issue. I can't be certain that the castings were from '66 as there was a "continuation" head cast 20 or so years ago.
    BTW a smoking starter is typically caused by a poor ground.

I'm aware of the short comings of the original IRON designs. What I am saying is that I'm surprised that there wasn't more "enthusiasm" for aluminum substitutes, properly reinforced.

For instance, my AFR's have a deck thickness of .750 plus. That's even thicker then Edelbrock guessed on theirs at 5/8". I suppose, "necessity is the mother of invention"? The "427 brute", i.e., 427 light weight, as I know it is a very short life expectancy engine even if used normally. Using iron molds agreed is disasterous most likely.

Now I know that there are 351c  C8 engineering numbered, with 68 casting dates blocks that were part of the "Indy parts" program, and no one has mentioned the DOHC 255 Indy engine. I've only heard of ONE 427 aluminum block and it got blown up before I got to see it.

You got Nicholson's stuff. Did he destroy all of the aluminum 351-c blocks?


The block in this engine came from a Michigan racer. Has a 68 casting date.