R Model Heads, Cam and Intake

[shelbydoug]

   Scott ,
       The 351 (XE 9.2 deck version) was made in iron and aluminum as you know and was "funded" by the GT 40/Can Am program. The 351C aluminum block program was done for the '69 Indy effoert headed by nearby resident Henry "Smokey" Yunick. When the program fell apart , the "inventory" was sent to H&M Charlotte for "sale" Dyno bought the stuff from them. Ford DID give him five or six iron SK 351C blocks with "square" cylinders but core shift was excessive and to the point where they were unusable. After the Factory backed Pinto effort , Don was "on his own" , with ZERO help from Ford.
   Randy

I've known Randy for 40+ years and this has been a constant theme. Randy will turn on a lightbulb with a fairly simple comment leaving you to wonder if he turned the bulb on with purpose. (Usually that is the case.)

In this case I was bemoaning the inconsistent quality of the low production rare alloy castings. Randy once again brings up the universal principal "How did it get paid for?", "What group was funding it?", Who's authority was okaying the pattern making, the quantity, the tooling and research budget? Of course once an item makes it out of the well maybe this direction is a good direction to go, well then better more consistent castings are approved.

John

OK. Randy is always "colorful" You won't always get what you were asking about but you will get something interesting to the point of being fascinating.
He has the ability to put things in human terms that otherwise I would have just given up on and kept wondering about. So it's always fun to get his reply. Rarely boring.

I'll throw my wrench in the works now and take the thread further off course. I'm good at that. No need to thank me. Did an intake for the 351c aluminum Indy block ever get made or never quite get to it?

I've heard discussion about the 351c Australian blocks having a lot of core shift and being put in production truck engines in Australia.

Were the aluminum versions cast from the HD block molds with the thicker bulkheads or just the regular molds?


I actually had my first D2AE 4 bolt block that came out of a wrecked Pantera. The shop I brought it to for boring told me never to come back again. Seems they thought I had a special block since he had to sharpen his cutters several times in over boring it. He said I screwed him?

He said that's what all the xxxxyyyy's meant in the lifter galleries but I think he was just used to doing the soft iron Chevy blocks vs. Fords with their higher nodular content? I don't know . Never went back to him again.


I actually expected your Boss 2-4 to be a version of the Shelby Autosport manifold. As I recall, Randy gave that one a poor rating?

[JohnSlack]

   Scott ,
       The 351 (XE 9.2 deck version) was made in iron and aluminum as you know and was "funded" by the GT 40/Can Am program. The 351C aluminum block program was done for the '69 Indy effoert headed by nearby resident Henry "Smokey" Yunick. When the program fell apart , the "inventory" was sent to H&M Charlotte for "sale" Dyno bought the stuff from them. Ford DID give him five or six iron SK 351C blocks with "square" cylinders but core shift was excessive and to the point where they were unusable. After the Factory backed Pinto effort , Don was "on his own" , with ZERO help from Ford.
   Randy

I've known Randy for 40+ years and this has been a constant theme. Randy will turn on a lightbulb with a fairly simple comment leaving you to wonder if he turned the bulb on with purpose. (Usually that is the case.)

In this case I was bemoaning the inconsistent quality of the low production rare alloy castings. Randy once again brings up the universal principal "How did it get paid for?", "What group was funding it?", Who's authority was okaying the pattern making, the quantity, the tooling and research budget? Of course once an item makes it out of the well maybe this direction is a good direction to go, well then better more consistent castings are approved.

John

OK. Randy is always "colorful" You won't always get what you were asking about but you will get something interesting to the point of being fascinating.
He has the ability to put things in human terms that otherwise I would have just given up on and kept wondering about. So it's always fun to get his reply. Rarely boring.

I'll throw my wrench in the works now and take the thread further off course. I'm good at that. No need to thank me. Did an intake for the 351c aluminum Indy block ever get made or never quite get to it?

I've heard discussion about the 351c Australian blocks having a lot of core shift and being put in production truck engines in Australia.

Were the aluminum versions cast from the HD block molds with the thicker bulkheads or just the regular molds?


I actually had my first D2AE 4 bolt block that came out of a wrecked Pantera. The shop I brought it to for boring told me never to come back again. Seems they thought I had a special block since he had to sharpen his cutters several times in over boring it. He said I screwed him?

He said that's what all the xxxxyyyy's meant in the lifter galleries but I think he was just used to doing the soft iron Chevy blocks vs. Fords with their higher nodular content? I don't know . Never went back to him again.


I actually expected your Boss 2-4 to be a version of the Shelby Autosport manifold. As I recall, Randy gave that one a poor rating?

Doug,
No the Shelby 2x4 BOSS 302 intake manifold moved the carburetors back to clear the distributor, the Shelby intake also has longer ports in the rear, as well as being tilted front to rear. The Shelby intake manifold is better than the stock intake, not hard. I have obsessed for most of my adult life on the "other" 1969 2x4 intake and have owned several prior to the one in the picture in the last post. Randy and I had discussed the standard flange intake manifold for many years. Occasionally he would tell me that he would sell me his when he was done with it.....he spoke so highly of it that eventually I just had to go on a unicorn hunt. By careful evaluation I was able to find 10 of the intakes in the known world. After another year of talking to different people who owned them I finally listened to the advice of the late great Dave Zeuschel, "There is no obstruction to big that you can't fix with cash." I advertised for the intake that I was searching for someone willing to sell me one, name the price. The price is not to be revealed, the deal I made with my wife is not to be revealed. My deal did not set the price or value of that intake manifold, it simply reflected what in that micro-second in time was the pain threshold I was willing to endure to have that intake. Holman Moody also made an intake manifold similar to the Shelby BOSS  302 2x4.

P.S. this standard flange intake manifold also requires the offset distributor to clear the carburetors.
John

[shelbydoug]

   Scott ,
       The 351 (XE 9.2 deck version) was made in iron and aluminum as you know and was "funded" by the GT 40/Can Am program. The 351C aluminum block program was done for the '69 Indy effoert headed by nearby resident Henry "Smokey" Yunick. When the program fell apart , the "inventory" was sent to H&M Charlotte for "sale" Dyno bought the stuff from them. Ford DID give him five or six iron SK 351C blocks with "square" cylinders but core shift was excessive and to the point where they were unusable. After the Factory backed Pinto effort , Don was "on his own" , with ZERO help from Ford.
   Randy

I've known Randy for 40+ years and this has been a constant theme. Randy will turn on a lightbulb with a fairly simple comment leaving you to wonder if he turned the bulb on with purpose. (Usually that is the case.)

In this case I was bemoaning the inconsistent quality of the low production rare alloy castings. Randy once again brings up the universal principal "How did it get paid for?", "What group was funding it?", Who's authority was okaying the pattern making, the quantity, the tooling and research budget? Of course once an item makes it out of the well maybe this direction is a good direction to go, well then better more consistent castings are approved.

John

OK. Randy is always "colorful" You won't always get what you were asking about but you will get something interesting to the point of being fascinating.
He has the ability to put things in human terms that otherwise I would have just given up on and kept wondering about. So it's always fun to get his reply. Rarely boring.

I'll throw my wrench in the works now and take the thread further off course. I'm good at that. No need to thank me. Did an intake for the 351c aluminum Indy block ever get made or never quite get to it?

I've heard discussion about the 351c Australian blocks having a lot of core shift and being put in production truck engines in Australia.

Were the aluminum versions cast from the HD block molds with the thicker bulkheads or just the regular molds?


I actually had my first D2AE 4 bolt block that came out of a wrecked Pantera. The shop I brought it to for boring told me never to come back again. Seems they thought I had a special block since he had to sharpen his cutters several times in over boring it. He said I screwed him?

He said that's what all the xxxxyyyy's meant in the lifter galleries but I think he was just used to doing the soft iron Chevy blocks vs. Fords with their higher nodular content? I don't know . Never went back to him again.


I actually expected your Boss 2-4 to be a version of the Shelby Autosport manifold. As I recall, Randy gave that one a poor rating?

Doug,
No the Shelby 2x4 BOSS 302 intake manifold moved the carburetors back to clear the distributor, the Shelby intake also has longer ports in the rear, as well as being tilted front to rear. The Shelby intake manifold is better than the stock intake, not hard. I have obsessed for most of my adult life on the "other" 1969 2x4 intake and have owned several prior to the one in the picture in the last post. Randy and I had discussed the standard flange intake manifold for many years. Occasionally he would tell me that he would sell me his when he was done with it.....he spoke so highly of it that eventually I just had to go on a unicorn hunt. By careful evaluation I was able to find 10 of the intakes in the known world. After another year of talking to different people who owned them I finally listened to the advice of the late great Dave Zeuschel, "There is no obstruction to big that you can't fix with cash." I advertised for the intake that I was searching for someone willing to sell me one, name the price. The price is not to be revealed, the deal I made with my wife is not to be revealed. My deal did not set the price or value of that intake manifold, it simply reflected what in that micro-second in time was the pain threshold I was willing to endure to have that intake. Holman Moody also made an intake manifold similar to the Shelby BOSS  302 2x4.

P.S. this standard flange intake manifold also requires the offset distributor to clear the carburetors.
John

I feel your pain. You are speaking of love and love is not a rational thing. I also think that it is some kind of a viral infection with mostly symptoms of pain, but that's another story.

I suppose that it is not possible to know every intake that was made but I suspect that many were, just not seen by anyone but the tool makers?


H&M is part of that formula. They made A LOT of manifolds that any of us ever saw.

I SUSPECT that there is a T/A type 2x4 intake for the 351c somewhere. It's said that the Detomaso version of the 48ida Weber manifold was built by H&M, Ford paid for it, and unfortunately shipped the molds to Italy?

Lots of stuff got made in those 'Carolina hills besides 'shine.


I had a "Ford Motosport" A331 intake. It looked normal on the outside but had 302-4v size ports. It was heavy because of all the extra metal cast into it. I suppose that wasn't cheating to them?

[JohnSlack]

   Scott ,
       The 351 (XE 9.2 deck version) was made in iron and aluminum as you know and was "funded" by the GT 40/Can Am program. The 351C aluminum block program was done for the '69 Indy effoert headed by nearby resident Henry "Smokey" Yunick. When the program fell apart , the "inventory" was sent to H&M Charlotte for "sale" Dyno bought the stuff from them. Ford DID give him five or six iron SK 351C blocks with "square" cylinders but core shift was excessive and to the point where they were unusable. After the Factory backed Pinto effort , Don was "on his own" , with ZERO help from Ford.
   Randy

I've known Randy for 40+ years and this has been a constant theme. Randy will turn on a lightbulb with a fairly simple comment leaving you to wonder if he turned the bulb on with purpose. (Usually that is the case.)

In this case I was bemoaning the inconsistent quality of the low production rare alloy castings. Randy once again brings up the universal principal "How did it get paid for?", "What group was funding it?", Who's authority was okaying the pattern making, the quantity, the tooling and research budget? Of course once an item makes it out of the well maybe this direction is a good direction to go, well then better more consistent castings are approved.

John

OK. Randy is always "colorful" You won't always get what you were asking about but you will get something interesting to the point of being fascinating.
He has the ability to put things in human terms that otherwise I would have just given up on and kept wondering about. So it's always fun to get his reply. Rarely boring.

I'll throw my wrench in the works now and take the thread further off course. I'm good at that. No need to thank me. Did an intake for the 351c aluminum Indy block ever get made or never quite get to it?

I've heard discussion about the 351c Australian blocks having a lot of core shift and being put in production truck engines in Australia.

Were the aluminum versions cast from the HD block molds with the thicker bulkheads or just the regular molds?


I actually had my first D2AE 4 bolt block that came out of a wrecked Pantera. The shop I brought it to for boring told me never to come back again. Seems they thought I had a special block since he had to sharpen his cutters several times in over boring it. He said I screwed him?

He said that's what all the xxxxyyyy's meant in the lifter galleries but I think he was just used to doing the soft iron Chevy blocks vs. Fords with their higher nodular content? I don't know . Never went back to him again.


I actually expected your Boss 2-4 to be a version of the Shelby Autosport manifold. As I recall, Randy gave that one a poor rating?

Doug,
No the Shelby 2x4 BOSS 302 intake manifold moved the carburetors back to clear the distributor, the Shelby intake also has longer ports in the rear, as well as being tilted front to rear. The Shelby intake manifold is better than the stock intake, not hard. I have obsessed for most of my adult life on the "other" 1969 2x4 intake and have owned several prior to the one in the picture in the last post. Randy and I had discussed the standard flange intake manifold for many years. Occasionally he would tell me that he would sell me his when he was done with it.....he spoke so highly of it that eventually I just had to go on a unicorn hunt. By careful evaluation I was able to find 10 of the intakes in the known world. After another year of talking to different people who owned them I finally listened to the advice of the late great Dave Zeuschel, "There is no obstruction to big that you can't fix with cash." I advertised for the intake that I was searching for someone willing to sell me one, name the price. The price is not to be revealed, the deal I made with my wife is not to be revealed. My deal did not set the price or value of that intake manifold, it simply reflected what in that micro-second in time was the pain threshold I was willing to endure to have that intake. Holman Moody also made an intake manifold similar to the Shelby BOSS  302 2x4.

P.S. this standard flange intake manifold also requires the offset distributor to clear the carburetors.
John

I feel your pain. You are speaking of love and love is not a rational thing. I also think that it is some kind of a viral infection with mostly symptoms of pain, but that's another story.

I suppose that it is not possible to know every intake that was made but I suspect that many were, just not seen by anyone but the tool makers?


H&M is part of that formula. They made A LOT of manifolds that any of us ever saw.

I SUSPECT that there is a T/A type 2x4 intake for the 351c somewhere. It's said that the Detomaso version of the 48ida Weber manifold was built by H&M, Ford paid for it, and unfortunately shipped the molds to Italy?

Lots of stuff got made in those 'Carolina hills besides 'shine.


I had a "Ford Motosport" A331 intake. It looked normal on the outside but had 302-4v size ports. It was heavy because of all the extra metal cast into it. I suppose that wasn't cheating to them?

Doug,
Over the years I have seen BOSS 302 intakes that have had the snouts cut off of the front of them and been used with spacers for a 351C build. I've owned a 2x4 Dominator intake that had been welded up with adapters on the carburetor pads that had been used for 351C stuff in Australia and New Zealand. So I think that was taken into mind when FoMoCo had an intake for a program that was over that could adapt that easily.. Besides the world was changing, FoMoCo was getting out of racing, Joe Boghosian told me that one of the higher ups came to the track where they were testing and said get rid of this stuff. He went to get a couple of box trailers and loaded them up. NASCAR 427 engines and parts, Indy DOHC motors, BOSS motors, just load em up and get out. Engineers moved to emissions programs, the world had changed and the Cleveland got screwed.
John

[shelbydoug]

These days I wouldn't hack up a T/A intake but if you see one that's available I might be able to be talked into it?
I don't know if the offset distributor will fit in a Pantera though and I've really got the Webers dialed in.

[TA Coupe]

What do you guys think this head is?

     Roy

[427heaven]

Lets see... Staggered valves, small ports- Tunnel port 302 ?

[TA Coupe]

Tunnelport 302 has ports like a 427 Tunnelport so not even close. 🙄

     Roy

[shelbydoug]

That's that secret, non-existant head, made from unobtainium that Randy mentioned that matches that 289 T/A, non-existant intake.

It actually resembles the C302B aluminum '80s "Motorsport" head a little?

I think it's made out of radioactive materials to keep the tech inspectors away as well?

Wasn't it cast at Area 51 or Studio 54 or something like that?

[gt350hr]

    Roy,
      That is another of the "low cost" "Boss" heads configured to use the 351W intake. The heads  were made ( like your 302 versions) to accept a "conventional" wedge intake like yours do. "I" was not aware Ford Engineering tried "that" combination , only the 302 ci version. I learn something new every day.
   Neither combination made it to production status.
  Randy

[pbf777]

I SUSPECT that there is a T/A type 2x4 intake for the 351c somewhere.

     In the early '80's, I think it was the Columbus Ford event, I held a 351C, dual plane, dual four of Holley pattern, magnesium cast intake manifold, this with no markings to identify it and unmachined.  The guy wanted $500. bucks for it, wouldn't budge a bit on the price, so I decided I would just pass on this one, and would probably find a nicer, more finished piece for less at a later date.  Oh well..........   

     Scott.

[gt350hr]

 Sean Rogan bought it at that event. The manifold is a single plane dual four and to date , two of the five made are known to exist. ( one of the two is marked $5 which is example #5) .

  Doug , since the 351C was not a T/A engine , the above mentioned dual four was the only one made as a part of the "366 engine program".

    "Colorful?"  Howard Pardee is colorful. I am just fixated on the experimental stuff and have been for 50+ years. My study effort allows me to define what guys like you guess about , and I don't mean that in a negative way. There are MANY things I can't do or have a clue as to what they are because it's not my "niche". Don't ask me to "tune a Weber carb" , I can't do it. You can.

[shelbydoug]

I SUSPECT that there is a T/A type 2x4 intake for the 351c somewhere.

     In the early '80's, I think it was the Columbus Ford event, I held a 351C, dual plane, dual four of Holley pattern, magnesium cast intake manifold, this with no markings to identify it and unmachined.  The guy wanted $500. bucks for it, wouldn't budge a bit on the price, so I decided I would just pass on this one, and would probably find a nicer, more finished piece for less at a later date.  Oh well..........   

     Scott.

There was one that Art Miller tested for Ford back around 1970 or so but it was the same manifold as the 3-2 with a changeable top.
Because of where Miller's head was at at the time, it didn't do well in HIS testing.

I know Jeff Burgy had a 3-2 and his usual story was he found it at a swap meet in Detroit. Sure Jeff.

The timing on the Cleveland developement wasn't good from Ford. Everything got cancelled with the "end of racing edict".

One of the issues the racing Panteras had in Europe was that the engine hadn't been developed for racing yet. Detomaso was the first one and they had little idea what to do with it.

The crankshaft Ford had made for them came from Hank the Crank and they three all of the counter weights off in competition.


B\Never saw or even heard of a dual four for the C. Seems like it went strait to the Wieand tunnel ram?

[shelbydoug]

Sean Rogan bought it at that event. The manifold is a single plane dual four and to date , two of the five made are known to exist. ( one of the two is marked $5 which is example #5) .

  Doug , since the 351C was not a T/A engine , the above mentioned dual four was the only one made as a part of the "366 engine program".

    "Colorful?"  Howard Pardee is colorful. I am just fixated on the experimental stuff and have been for 50+ years. My study effort allows me to define what guys like you guess about , and I don't mean that in a negative way. There are MANY things I can't do or have a clue as to what they are because it's not my "niche". Don't ask me to "tune a Weber carb" , I can't do it. You can.

I stand by colorful. Must be all of that grey hair thing you have going?


So if the aluminum block was part of the Indy program, that's as far as they got? I know you had aluminum sk heads. No intakes?


That dual four is a collectors item. I don't think you can make it worth more then a roll of nickels?


Almost got Price to make his W dual to adapt to my A3's but he got busy tuning someones go cart or something?

[gt350hr]

  Kelly Koeffel (sp) has a picture of a manifold for Webers that "I" believe was destined for that engine. It is "not" like any other I have ever seen except for the carburetor mounting pads. The Indy program had two potential sizes based on the same block. 305 and 320 neither made it to the track.

     While the hair is turning color it is STILL THERE unlike many of our associates. LMAO.