Antifreeze in oil, HELP

[shelbydoug]

What Phil states is accurate and very pertinent to this situation.

I had to go through three or four sets to find the right ones. I wound up with Mr.Gaskets. NONE of the Felpros worked for the intake.

YOU have to match them up to the heads. I don't like the ones that have the L shaped cut right next to the water port. Mr.Gaskets didn't.

IF there is the slightest imperfection in the head or manifold, you will get a leak through them. I'm not sure what they are there for.

Unfortunately I didn't save the part numbers in my notes but you can get the Mr.Gasket from Summit Racing.

I think I wound up using the #213 Mr. Gasket.

[68gtcoupe]

Believe I have used the Mr. Gasket 5831 (Ultra Seal) in the past with good results

Terry

[sg66]

I used the Fel Pro from NPD. If you have any suggestions for better gaskets I would love to hear them.
Corey

Felpro lists 2 intake gaskets for a (assuming 68) 302. 90103 without the "L" and excludes Hi-Perf and the 90116 with the "L" for Hi-Perf and Special. Other than the "L" I don't know what makes them different but may be a good idea to call Felpro and ask them.

Also I saw in an earlier post you were using the copper spray gasket. Mr Gasket says that's not recommended for long term sealing. Also note their recommendations for the when you use what for end seals. https://www.holley.com/products/gaskets/intake_gaskets/

One last thing to keep in mind, once you get antifreeze circulating through your motor, you run the risk of it destroying your bearings because the antifreeze decides to live there. At a minimum, I would keep a close eye on your oil pressure and any noticeable drop from normal I would inspect and replace if necessary rod and mains.

Also goes without saying that replacing and inspecting the oil more frequently is a good idea for the near future

[Corey Bowcutt]

Given the nasty nature of Antifreeze should I just put in distilled water until I know the issue if fixed or will that cause some other problem.  Car is in heated garage so freezing is a nonissue.

Corey

[TOBKOB]

Be sure to include a rust inhibitor if you choose to use water. I know it's apples and oranges but most Model A folks seem to prefer water and a rust inhibitor since the babbit is poured instead of inserts.

TOB

[shelbydoug]

I've seen some really negelected engines and an "old timer" back in the day, said keep changing the oil and running the engine until it comes out clean.

He saved a number of engines that way, as far as the bottom ends go. The lifters and rocker arms are another story but those are easily replaceable, or more easily replaceable.

I've also come to the conclusion that running straight "break in oil" for a few thousand miles is a really good idea as well.

No matter what you do though, you need to be a little bit lucky and "duck the bullet".

[2112]

I used the Fel Pro from NPD. If you have any suggestions for better gaskets I would love to hear them.
Corey

I always liked Mr. Gasket Ultra seal for my Windsor engines;

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mr-Gasket-5831-1962-76-Ford-289-302-Ultra-Seal-Intake-Gasket-Set,54397.html

Link was random, just wanted a picture

EDIT; Whoops 68gtcoupe beat me to it.

[gt350shelb]

you can  add some ATF  to the engine oil (1 quart) and let engine idle            DO NOT DRIVE !!!!!!!!! < READ again   warm it up          then drain it  replace filter  and fill with  engine oil . the ATF will absorber the water in system  .

[Corey Bowcutt]

I reinstalled my intake manifold incorporating all the best practices in the world.  Before doing so I checked the flatness of the heads and the intake and to the best I can check they look perfect.  I am convinced there is no way the intake could be leaking at this point.

The oil that is in the car now is fresh (installed last Sunday) and the engine has not been run with that oil.  I cracked the oil plug yesterday and got maybe a few tablespoons of antifreeze out of the drain plug.  I did it again this morning and still got several drops just after sitting overnight.  Then before even adding any antifreeze I pressurized the coolant system and it will not hold pressure. It slowly leaks down. I did this several times to no avail.  I then cracked open the oil drain plug again and got another tablespoon or so of antifreeze (clearly when you drain the antifreeze it leaves a lot still in the engine?).  So it is clear to me that even with the radiator not filled with antifreeze, antifreeze is still leaking into the oil.

So I am pretty certain I have larger problems.  I am on my way to harbor Freight to get the combustion leak test kit (Thank you Steve) so I will verify my worst fears in a few hours.  But I have little doubt left that either I have a head gasket that is leaking between the coolant passages and the oil or I have a cracked block.

Couple questions, the next step is to remove the heads. 

1) If it is a head gasket problem will that be obvious when I remove the heads?

2) Is there any way to differentiate between blown head gasket and cracked block?

3) What is the best book for explaining how to properly reassembly the heads on the 1968 301 engine?  I have the shop manual but it seems way to general I would like more details.

Corey

[427heaven]

 Generally you will see a snail trail where a leak exists on the gasket surface if that is the problem! As in any trouble shooting procedures start with the whats right in front of you, like the top end of your engine and methodically work your way down. DONT willy nilly rip sh t apart but more of a methodical type of inspection. Sorta like archiologists digging for bones in the desert. Look for abnormalities you will get there ... Start there first!

[shelbydoug]

If you have a crack in one of the cylinder head ports, it would more likely be in an exhaust port. There you would smell it in the exhausts.

If it was on the intake, the plugs would be spitting..

302 heads are not particularly susceptible to cracking unless you did a "Competition" type of porting on them. Particularly on the exhausts, right in the short turn radius area. It's thin there.

If you have a crack between the valves into the water ports, that would leak into the cylinder, not into the oil pan. The cylinder would also have anti-freeze in it above the piston, fouling the plug and blowing it into the exhaust.



Unfortunately if it isn't one of the heads, it's the block. That makes more sense since you are finding this in the oil.

If your pressure testing shows that the system will not hold 15psi and there are no VISIBLE leaks, ta da, it's the block.


Now the block, probably, if it is cracked, is on a thrust wall in one of the cylinders. There are no internal "freeze plugs" that could be leaking. It's a cylinder wall.

Unless you twisted the heck out of the clock with a 10,000rpm hole shot and cracked through the main bulkheads, the cylinder can be sleeved and reused. You can't do that with the engine in the car unfortunately.


Ford blocks are high nodular iron unlike the soft crap that GM uses. It welds up really well with something as simple as a 308 stainless stick. So I've seen twisted blocks that crack through one of the mains (usually the center main which indicates you twisted the block) with such a bad saw tooth that you catch a finger nail on it, welded up, and align bored and run better then new. So all is not lost at all, but it's gonna cost a few bucks.

Best of luck with your findings. My #8 exhaust port leaked just as I was about to drive 9 hours to Pittsburg and would have failed on the road, so there that was bad luck gone good.


A compression tester won't show the crack in the cylinder normally since it will be down in the bore towards the end of the stroke. The pressure tester, which you already did, is all that you need to know provided that you aren't leaking through something like the heater core and giving you the wrong cause of the leak?

[Corey Bowcutt]

I do not smell antifreeze in the exhaust at all, exhaust smells normal.  The car runs great.  So do these two facts mean it is not a head gasket or cracked heads so has to be a cracked block?

Corey

[427heaven]

Dont jump to conclusions, take a look at all things on the top end . There will be tell tale signs, look at the combustion chambers and the sealing surface of the cylinder heads, look at both sides of the head gaskets. Remember it was in good shape BEFORE you started working on it if I recall. Go back to what you were doing before your problem occured. You probably installed the head or intake gaskets improperly look very closely right there. While it is apart look at the deck of the block often you will see a hairline crack there or in one of the cylinders. Rotate engine with breaker bar and look carefully in each cylinder wall. Dont jump to the worst case scenario it is probably a gasket sealing problem. Always start with the easy stuff first!

[Bob Gaines]

AS I said before Anti freeze will kill your engine if it gets to the bearings . You have got to stop running your engine while anti freeze is present. You need to drain the anti freeze mixture coolant and replace with ONLY water while trying to diagnose a coolant in the oil problem with the engine running. You will still be able to tell water is in the oil as easy as seeing green antifreeze in the oil. After you solve your problem and everything else works fine is when it is safe to you drain off some water and add antifreeze. Water in the oil is bad but antifreeze in the oil is 100 times worse.

[sg66]

1. Did you drain the anti-freeze by opening the drain cock at the bottom of the radiator or did you remove the plugs in the block? If you only drained the radiator then yes, around 1/2 the coolant capacity is still in the block.

2. If it is a head gasket, it could be very obvious or you may need to look closer. The key here is identify all the oil and anti-freeze holes and look closely for signs of anti-freeze traveling into an oil hole. Speaking from experience, I had the top ring sealing a cylinder fail which pressurized the cooling system which then pushed antifreeze into the oil. This happened a long time ago and I forget if the oil/antifreeze seals were directly compromised by the cylinder ring that but they probably were.

3. One oddball thing to consider because you said this started when you replaced intake bolts, I remember years ago being told that either Felpro or Ford Motorsport recommended increasing head bolt torque by 10 ft/lbs because they had found that when torquing down the intake, it could pull up the head just enough to cause a head gasket leak when combined with all the normal valve train activity. Fatigued head bolts could come into play also so when you do pull the heads and if you discover it's a gasket, it's a good idea to get new bolts and chase the threads to ensure you are getting a correct torque number when you put things back together. One other thing while the heads are off is to check for flatness.

Edit:

One other thing I'll throw out there is that considering the motor has been pumping the oil/antifreeze combo and it would be very wise to drop the pan and check the bearings anyway, you may want to drop the pan before removing your heads and draining the antifreeze from the block to see if you can
get some clues about the source of the antifreeze.