Little Red - Documentary

[Richstang]

The Little Red documentary didn't really answer a lot of the nitty gritty questions I had.
Some of the most notable details though discussion or video for me were; 
   -It was never painted in a Ferrari red, just the factory Ford Candyapple Red
   -The door panels show us an August '66 Ford build date
   -The first owner tells us he bought it with a single 4bbl, no A/C, no compressor, and no Paxton on it.


Questions about Little Red after watching the documentary. These are probably still unknown.

1) When did the black top get spray painted on?
We know the black roof top was spray painted on and it never had a vinyl top.
-Was it added when first completed as a Shelby in December 1966?
-Or was the black top sprayed painted on when it was first updated to the 67.5 Shelby design proposal?
-Or was it added later when SAI created their version of the '68 design prior to the LLTC July 7th, 1967?

2) When did the wheels change to 10-spokes?
It would have been ordered and shipped to LAX with Magstars in December 1966, just like all the other early '67's.
The large letter Goodyear tires shown at the LLTC in July suggests a wheel swap

3) When was the '67 louvered hood added, as Craig Jackson mentioned?
This suggests it had a standard Shelby hood when first completed December 1966. No louvered hoods were known to exist at that time. The B&W photo, taken at LAX, shows it with a darker louvered hood. It is darker than the rest of the body including the Shelby fiberglass nose. This suggests to me, it was changed prior to July 1967 where it appeared to be a closer color match to the body paint.

4) When did the outboard grille and grille lights get added to the car?
The Production Order notes it was completed in December 1966.
We don't see the arrival of the outboard grille and lights in production until May 1967.

5) Which came first, the single or the double Paxton Supercharger? (I assume single) When were each of the versions added / removed?
One photo found, shows a single Paxton installed, quite possibly taken in July '67 at the LLTC.
It has been suggested the EXP lettering in the side stripes was added after the LLTC. Does that coincide with the dual Paxton's installation? We know the EXP lettering was added during Shelby's lease while at LAX. So, did these two details go hand and hand?

6) Where did the nickname 'Big Red' come from and when did that start getting used?
The Cobra Crier, Vol 1, issue 3, June 1967, notes 'Big Red' on display along with a supercharged GT350 at the Custom Car Show at the Sports Arena (When?).
Rumor has it this was Goodell's nickname and not necessarily accepted by SAI employees who preferred 'Little Red'. Is this true or just hearsay?

[Richstang]

more pictures of interest

[JD]

Noticed too:
the position of the grille emblem set - lower than "production run" location
upper and lower grille mesh miss-match (lower is inboard grille mesh upper outboard mesh)
Later images have the turn signal bezels/unit chromed

(what does "LLTC" stand for?)

[Richstang]

Noticed too:
the position of the grille emblem set - lower than "production run" location
upper and lower grille mesh miss-match (lower is inboard grille mesh upper outboard mesh)
Later images have the turn signal bezels/unit chromed

(what does "LLTC" stand for?)

LLTC = Long Lead Technical Conference

All great points JD!

The upper/lower grille differences are clear in the EXP photo!!!
That is also visible in the front view color photo shown in the documentary.

I also agree on the front turn signal housing/bezels.
In the earlier photo with the darker hood, they appear body color not chrome!

Excellent point noting the lower than normal production location of the grille emblem.
That does sit very low by comparison.

[Special Ed]

Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.

[whiteykr]

I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn't the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad

[Richstang]

Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.

Interesting note!

[Richstang]

I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn't the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad

Since it was ordered by SAI, I would expect it shipped to LAX as a typical knock down unit for the '67 models.
Having the dual quads and AC would be expected, so your belief is likely correct.

When the EXP addition to the stripes was added is a good question that I also have.
It appears, from the very limited, few photos found, 'GT500' was how it was first striped on the sides.

The documentary show a damaged front end in the vintage color photos (Wyoming location per license plate?).
The nose section around headlights appears broken off/missing, while the hood and valance are visible.
We know it was updated to a '68 Shelby appearance from both documentation, and the as found details shown.
That is likely how it was sold by The Ford dealer lot, so the damaged parts were likely removed in the as found photos missing the entire nose.
Rumor has it many parts were stolen off the car too.

Based off of a production Mustang, not a development mule car such as the' 67 V-738-2, it could legally be sold if the engineering added items were removed.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.

If I remember correctly this was a roll on product that came in a kit with a textured roller, scuff pads, masking tape, etc. They sell pretty much the same kit today as pickup bed liner. Since the 80s there is a similar 3M product and gun that sprays a textured rubberized (paintable) coating for rock chip protection.

Little vs Big could be nothing more than marketing/magazine article usage. Nobody wanted their performance car known as little in an era when BIG was better. The shop guys would certainly use the little moniker since the coupes were always considered the little kid of the Mustang lineup.

[Richstang]

Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.

If I remember correctly this was a roll on product that came in a kit with a textured roller, scuff pads, masking tape, etc. They sell pretty much the same kit today as pickup bed liner. Since the 80s there is a similar 3M product and gun that sprays a textured rubberized (paintable) coating for rock chip protection.

Little vs Big could be nothing more than marketing/magazine article usage. Nobody wanted their performance car known as little in an era when BIG was better. The shop guys would certainly use the little moniker since the coupes were always considered the little kid of the Mustang lineup.

The nickname change from Little to Big Red would not be related to a marketing/magazine use.
This '67 Shelby hardtop #00131 was an engineering car, not for PR use. It was not used in any road tests or magazines.

The Cobra Crier was in internal Shelby American employee newsletter.
It is the only time the name Big Red was ever written anywhere that is known.

With Little Red completed in December '66, the 'Little Red' name would have been discussed among the employees for many months throughout 1967.
IF, the nickname 'Big Red' was not used until, say June, and Shelby American closed production in late July, it must not have stuck with the car.

[roddster]

   Well, what is really needed is a time-line of the changes made to Lil'Red.  The only way for that is to do a Shelby American check, day to day of what was assigned at S/A similar to what Brian Styles did for #0139.
  To answer a few question asked: These are answered in the 68' Californai Special registry written by Paul Hewitt.  Sometimes you can find the registry for sale on Ebay, or possibly at Tony Branda's.
1) The wheels  were changed "sometime after 1/16/1967", Magstars to Ten Spokes
2) The 68' console "presumed" after 7/67
3) Single Paxton "installed before it's appearance at the L.A. Autoshow on 1/3/1967"
4) Tail light frames updated 8/67
5) Shelby decklid letters: 7/67
6) Front grill and grill trim by 8/67
7) Gas cap lid updated by 8/67
  There is other items mentioned like rear disk brakes, seat material, the registry does state there is no direct evidence of twin Paxtons ever being installed.

"Big Red" is/was a name attached to Ford's Experimental gas turbine semi rig which was recently dicovered.
  My questions would be:
It had to have been built as a standard 67 GT 500 with no mods, so, when did the fun begin? Appearantly right away in DEcember of 1966 and January 3 1967
When did the tail light panel get painted silver?
Is there any evidence of the seat upholstery being modified to ?
Is there any evidence to the carpeting being Multoon(?)
No rollbar was ever installed in the car

  Other information can come from the 1997 SAAC registry, interview with Fred Goodell

  I'd give no blame to how Craig Jackson had the car restored.  It's based on a good photo made in August/September of 1967.  Craig is a car guy, I think he did good.

Late additional info: Just so everyone knows, the louvers in the hood line up very well with the flat areas on each side of the metal underliner for the hood.  So, a louvered and metal underlined hood is a possibility.  Did they make one? I guess some day we'll find out.

[shelbymann1970]

I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn't the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad

From what I saw up close with the bumper mounting extension bent to the front of the car I'd say it was in volved in a wreck and also some mangled  front end  parts were in the Trunk. check out the grill support and the "68" Shelby broken header sitting on the core support in the last pic. Can anyone identify the person in the Hawaiian shirt at the front of the car in the second pic?    Gary

[alexgt350h]

You mean the guy standing beside my wife and I?
He is a really Special person!

[Richstang]

   Well, what is really needed is a time-line of the changes made to Lil'Red.  The only way for that is to do a Shelby American check, day to day of what was assigned at S/A similar to what Brian Styles did for #0139.
  To answer a few question asked: These are answered in the 68' Californai Special registry written by Paul Hewitt.  Sometimes you can find the registry for sale on Ebay, or possibly at Tony Branda's.
1) The wheels  were changed "sometime after 1/16/1967", Magstars to Ten Spokes
2) The 68' console "presumed" after 7/67
3) Single Paxton "installed before it's appearance at the L.A. Autoshow on 1/3/1967"
4) Tail light frames updated 8/67
5) Shelby decklid letters: 7/67
6) Front grill and grill trim by 8/67
7) Gas cap lid updated by 8/67
  There is other items mentioned like rear disk brakes, seat material, the registry does state there is no direct evidence of twin Paxtons ever being installed.

"Big Red" is/was a name attached to Ford's Experimental gas turbine semi rig which was recently dicovered.
  My questions would be:
It had to have been built as a standard 67 GT 500 with no mods, so, when did the fun begin? Appearantly right away in DEcember of 1966 and January 3 1967
When did the tail light panel get painted silver?
Is there any evidence of the seat upholstery being modified to ?
Is there any evidence to the carpeting being Multoon(?)
No rollbar was ever installed in the car

  Other information can come from the 1997 SAAC registry, interview with Fred Goodell

  I'd give no blame to how Craig Jackson had the car restored.  It's based on a good photo made in August/September of 1967.  Craig is a car guy, I think he did good.

Late additional info: Just so everyone knows, the louvers in the hood line up very well with the flat areas on each side of the metal underliner for the hood.  So, a louvered and metal underlined hood is a possibility.  Did they make one? I guess some day we'll find out.

Roddster,

A timeline would be very helpful, IF we could get the NEW details to define it AND if we could substantiate them with facts versus the past editorials.
Finding Little Red in Texas is re-writing history. Some of those details were previously mentioned in this thread as uncovered in the documentary.


Both the last '67 registry and Paul's book are over 10 years old now. While there's a ton of good info some of it is now outdated and incorrect. You know NEW details have continuously been discovered since then, correcting many of the past written errors. For those casual readers, it was noted the cars were delivered with a 390 motor. The first three (3) GT500s are now documented as ordered and delivered with dual quad 428's. Fred Goodell mentions #00131 was painted Ferrari red in that old interview. When Jason Billups polished down the paint, on camera, we all saw it was only Candyapple Red. Those interviews suggest a 4 speed manual was installed. The documentary shows us it never had a manual transmission.  It was also suggested to have a vinyl top. The 'as found' photos show us otherwise with that painted on black roof.  The LLTC '68 model introduction at Riverside was said to be in August. Now, we all know it was July 7th 1967. Four holes were found in the floorboards on each side of the car behind the front seat. That suggests it had a roll bar at one time. Since none of the photos from July 1967 and onward show it installed, the assumption was it never had one. 
I could go on... It's time to let go of those past antiquated written myths.


Many of the seven (7) items you listed just don't match up with current known details;
None of them answer any questions specifically about Little Red;
1) Wheels changed to 10-spokes 'SOMETIME' after 1/16/67. We know when production cars first appear with them, but that doesn't tell us when LR was updated.
2) I don't recall anyone asking about the '68 console. Yes, we know it would have been added with the '68 styling update for the LLTC in July.
3) The statement 'Single Paxton installed before the January 3rd 1967 LA Auto Show is outdated. 
The LA auto show was October 27, thru November 6, 1966 before LR was even built.
What proof of any event near at that time exists, other than editorial written in an 11 year old book?
Maybe it was at a different event, thus why we need to see the evidence!
4) I don't recall anyone asking about the taillight frames. I assume you're referring to the 6 screws visible in the frames shown at the LLTC. We know that was a later issued TSB notice to owners.
5) 'SHELBY" decklid letters. It would be nice if we knew when exactly these were added, if known. Was that speculation as done for the LLTC event in July?
6) Earlier in this thread it was mentioned production use of the outboard grille / lights started in May 1967. You stated August, which is far too late.
7) I don't recall anyone asking about the gas cap. Where's the question there?


The 'BIG RED' as mentioned in the 1967 Shelby American 'Cobra Crier was clearly not referring to the FORD concept turbine Big Rig from 4 years earlier. While the Ford truck concept was recently brought back into the spotlight once again, it has been known about for decades. I have photos of it in development back in April 1963. The June 1967 issued 'Cobra Crier' was referring to 'Little Red' as aka "Big Red' which was SAI's creation in LA and the only known Big Block Shelby Mustang with an added Paxton.
IT WAS NOT Ford's concept / creation built in Detroit. SAI would not be showing a dated four (4) year old concept truck at a local LA event/car show.


Craig Jackson chose the restoration point in time when #00131 (LR) had EXP in the side stripes. We saw that newly publicized exterior photo presented in the documentary.
Hopefully some evidence will be shared proving it had the dual Paxton's at that same point in time as the EXP lettering was added and when either was installed.

[67411F--0100-ENG.]

Hello Rich,

Those are all great questions that it would be nice to have answered.  I would also like to know when did Ford and/or Shelby "officially" kill the production of any coupes and convertibles?  One would assume that it was after this decision was made that 0131 became a test bed for the Paxton(s) and strengthened drivetrain. 

As you stated, hopefully some evidence will be shared proving it had the dual Paxtons at that same point in time as the EXP lettering was added and when either was installed.  Based on the car having GT500 side stripes in the Riverside photos, it would seem quite possible that the EXP500 side stripes were not added until after the car was shipped to Ionia.


Thanks,
Eric