A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232

[Benny]

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Difficult to answer. The owner of the red car may sue you because the value of his car was reduced if you called it a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or "Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra" on a public forum.

[Benny]

Hi 98SVT-was06GT, I never realised a person could get sued for asking a question & someone suggesting their honest opinion on historical information about a car? So much for history & freedom of speech however I'm very thankful for the records & notes provided by SAAC on Shelby motor vehicles & thanks for sharing your opinion, cheers.

[shelbydoug]

Hi 98SVT-was06GT, I never realised a person could get sued for asking a question & someone suggesting their honest opinion on historical information about a car? So much for history & freedom of speech however I'm very thankful for the records & notes provided by SAAC on Shelby motor vehicles & thanks for sharing your opinion, cheers.

The Registry was sued several times for publishing known information about several cars. It has not lost any decisions that I'm aware of or needed to settle out of court YET.

There was even a website put up years ago attacking our own Cobra Registrar, the Registry and SAAC all as conspiracy theorists and libelists with SAAC having the purpose of personal vendettas.This happened even before the advent of Q. So ridiculous untrue accusations of conspiracy at SAAC are nothing new here.



Unfortunately Cobras in particular attract more grifters and wheeler dealers then any other car out of the Shelby stables.

The thing to realize is that the SAAC Registry is not accepted as a legal document so caution should prevail while considering using it as one's defense. The wise thing to do would to keep it confidential as part of your personal research on a vehicle and inquire with the specific Registrar to see if there is confidential information withheld from publication before you buy?



There are lots of things it knows about past activities of certain questionable individuals who are even SAAC members and active here that can not be spoken of publicly without the risk of a "defaming" law suit. You might be right if you spill the beans publicly or "publish" it but it's gonna' cost you a bunch in legal fees even if you prevail.

We would like to think that we can reform them to see the light but that would be too God like if you ask me?

[Benny]

G'day Shelbydoug, I'm from Australia & 52 years of age & wasn't even born when these cars came into existence & I'm know Cobra expert. However through SAAC, becoming a member, purchasing a number of Shelby registries & joining the World Registry of Cobra website I'm learning how to identify Cobras via location stamped marks, photos & previous owners.
Without SAAC & their Shelby paperwork & other documentation, I'd have know idea how to differentiate a genuine Cobra over a great reproduction.
In short I never meant to upset anyone with my post or stir up trouble, I'll also remove the post if requested. Thank you for your response & personally I'll always rely upon SAAC & their information, cheers.

[shelbydoug]

G'day Shelbydoug, I'm from Australia & 52 years of age & wasn't even born when these cars came into existence & I'm know Cobra expert. However through SAAC, becoming a member, purchasing a number of Shelby registries & joining the World Registry of Cobra website I'm learning how to identify Cobras via location stamped marks, photos & previous owners.
Without SAAC & their Shelby paperwork & other documentation, I'd have know idea how to differentiate a genuine Cobra over a great reproduction.
In short I never meant to upset anyone with my post or stir up trouble, I'll also remove the post if requested. Thank you for your response & personally I'll always rely upon SAAC & their information, cheers.

I don't think you've upset anyone. Certainly not me. I hope I havn't upset you. Post away.

[S7MS427]

I don't think you've upset anyone. Certainly not me. I hope I haven't upset you. Post away.

+1  I wouldn't worry too much about upsetting anyone.  I think anyone who gets upset over fact may be hiding something.  We're just here to share information.

[Benny]

G'day Doug & Roy, I appreciate each of your reply's & I'll keep posting away , cheers.

[shelbydoug]

I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.

I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

[shelbydoug]

It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.

I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

For a '67 NYS would only require proof of previous registration which that tag is. There would be no title issued with it since NYS isn't a title state until '73 model year.

New York, in fact the White Plains DMV was THE place to register hot cars from a bill of sale until the '73 model year with titles.

It's not offered as a debateable issue here. Just a statement of fact as at least previously existed. 

[Benny]

I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

[Benny]

It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.

I still have some titles of cars I junked in the late 60s. We'd drive around and buy junkers for $10-15 and take them direct to the scrap metal dealer for $45. Those cars no longer exist so the titles are worthless unless someone is willing to commit a felony by stamping the VIN on another car. At that time a quirk existed in CA law. If I sold a car to a junkyard I was required to give them the title (or statement as to why I didn't have it). That title went to the state and was cancelled showing the car as junked. A scrap metal dealer was not required to obtain a title. The scrap yard was paying about $20 more per car than a junkyard. Those cars were being sent as scrap metal to Japan. If I had the title to a car and someone else had possession of the car the courts would have to figure out that one.
I know of at least one case where a person borrowed money from another SAAC member and gave them the title to their 65 GT350 as collateral. Hard times continued and he sold the car with a duplicate title he got from DMV after saying he had lost the original. In DMVs eyes the original title was now worthless as it had been replaced with a new one. It's hard to say what a court would find. The seller committed fraud. The person who loaned the money did not protect their interest by filing a lien with DMV and being listed as legal owner on the title.
The registration from Morrison's car is nothing more than a Rock and Roll or Shelby collectible. It has zero value as to the ownership of the car - only the title matters. Every year CA DMV issues new registration paperwork along with your tag. If someone was able to get into the DMV archives and check they would probably find that the Morrison car was junked. One interesting point is that CA DMV closed their doors to their historical records when it was discovered that Cobras that had been junked in the 60s and 70s were turning up with fresh MSOs and being registered as original cars. The "Air Cobra" scheme only came to light when the original owner of one of the junked cars came forward. He had purchased and still had the wreckage of his 427 Cobra that he purchased new, totaled, surrendered the title to the insurance (who notified DMV car was destroyed) and then purchased the wreckage back from the insurance company. The owner of the aircar had it seized by the CHP and after all was said and done his $250,000 investment was turned into a $50,000 kit car with a CA assigned VIN. He had no recourse since it was an all cash purchase - of course with such a small circle of Cobra buyers/restorers/sellers it was easy to figure out who had access to DMV records, who had the ability to create a Cobra from a pile of tubing and aluminum sheet and who was the logical broker for the dead guys car. Yes all (rumored to be 28) air Cobras just happened to come from estates of dead people whose kids always demanded cash and to remain unknown.

When you say air Cobras (rumored 28), is that series CSX2000 only or CSX3000 only or both series Cobras?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

When you say air Cobras (rumored 28), is that series CSX2000 only or CSX3000 only or both series Cobras?

Both

[shelbydoug]

I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

You will like Ned. He's a great guy. We call him the Scud missile.