A question for the SAAC Aficionado's on CSX3232

[Benny]

I think that if you, me, we are using a car like CSX3232 as an example, then there are several things to consider.

Certainly in the case of the comp cars, more then one have been completely re-created from the "remains" of the original. Many have been resold and personally I haven't heard of any "fraud" lawsuits involved.

It doesn't seem to be limited to original Comp Cobras that new purchasers accept the current existing car as they would the original and continue to race it?


So reconstructions of a twisted basket case race car seems to be more acceptable then a street car? It should also be noted that it may in fact be the SAAC Cobra Registry that coined the phrase, "air car", i.e., one that is constructed completely out of thin air, not even an original bolt.

Having said that, what is the acceptable level of replacement on a wreck like this? Records are attempted to be kept and the decision is up to the potential new purchaser?


It may even be a legal fact, that legally if you own the "title" in some way to a vehicle, that you have the car? I'd need a legal opinion on that but this potentially could be somewhat of a "thorny point" on the "Morrison 500", not to insult or accuse Brett of anything at all since he owns that California Registration. That's another subject though.




When I mentioned a car to our Cobra Registrar, and it might have been this one, his reply to me was "I want you to be aware that what you are looking at is not the car that left Shelby American". I think that says a lot if not all, so anyone interested in buying an "original" Cobra has to make a determination of how satisfied they are with what the car currently is?

Your last paragraph sums it up nicely, its not the car that left Shelby American & the individual needs to determine how satisfied they are with the car & its history. I like the style of the Cobra Registrar.

You will like Ned. He's a great guy. We call him the Scud missile. 

Cheers Doug, I've only had the opportunity to email Ned a couple of times but I hope to meet him, you & others one day at a SAAC convention.

[tesgt350]

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,.......

[shelbydoug]

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,.......

I don't mean to make this sound argumentative. That's not my intention.

I don't think the word "destroyed" is applicable here. It is repairable/rebuildable.

It does look like the chassis may be bent but chassis can be straightened.


I keep looking for the bodies stuck like squashed bugs to the tree. I don't remember what the newspaper report said but I'd be shocked if the driver and passenger survived.

Having said that though, thinking back when DWI wrecks were 1000% more common then today, I do remember having the thought that often the driver was the only one to survive since he was so plastered he bounced around like silly putty in the impact.


I remember one specifically where the Fire Department was using the big flood lights looking in the trees for the driver and it turned out that after he was thrown through the windshield, he just got up and ran away.

That was a Cadillac Eldorado convertible which back then was a favorite of the drunks since they were like driving a Sherman tank, destroyed anything they hit and just threw the passengers around "a little".  Not an Abrahams though. Those would sink through the asphalt pavement too much.

[tesgt350]

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,.......

I don't mean to make this sound argumentative. That's not my intention.

I don't think the word "destroyed" is applicable here. It is repairable/rebuildable.

It does look like the chassis may be bent but chassis can be straightened.


I keep looking for the bodies stuck like squashed bugs to the tree. I don't remember what the newspaper report said but I'd be shocked if the driver and passenger survived.

Having said that though, thinking back when DWI wrecks were 1000% more common then today, I do remember having the thought that often the driver was the only one to survive since he was so plastered he bounced around like silly putty in the impact.


I remember one specifically where the Fire Department was using the big flood lights looking in the trees for the driver and it turned out that after he was thrown through the windshield, he just got up and ran away.

That was a Cadillac Eldorado convertible which back then was a favorite of the drunks since they were like driving a Sherman tank, destroyed anything they hit and just threw the passengers around "a little".  Not an Abrahams though. Those would sink through the asphalt pavement too much.

The story that was with the Photos said the owner let a friend drive it and they were both killed in the crash.  Enough Money and Hours you can repair any destroyed Vehicle but back in that time period, I am some what sure everyone back then would say that, THAT car was destroyed............

[Cobra Ned]

I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.

[shelbydoug]

I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.

MY "rational" answer, IF I was interested in buying would be to see the pictures of the cars reconstruction and ask for a log of what was used and not used from the original car. Then I"d CONSIDER it as a repaired car rather then an air car but granted,  that would take maybe an impossible amount of convincing? 

I have my doubts as well but am not as yet convinced that the chassis was not reparable.

I know as a former Registrar that "re-bodies" are not uncommon on "Mustang" chassis or uni-bodies but exactly how a Cobra would be rebodied in that time frame would likely require another Cobra.


Even so, is it as valuable as an original Cobra? I doubt that but the question is what percentage? For sure the owner would equate them.


I do remember that Blood Brothers Wreckers in Mamaroneck had two 427 Cobras that I was aware of. One was a theft recovery. I'm very sure that they bought an entirely new aluminum body for one of the two. I don't know which one and I only knew of one CSX number anyway.

The one I'm thinking was from "Tony Rega" and I think it was close to Brostek's in the CSX 318...something?


I can't think of anyone having a replacement body to sell around 1976 or so except possibly maybe Gordon Gimble but obviously 3232 needed one? I may be wrong but I don't think Brian Anglis was selling full bodies or replacement chassis yet but he's the only other possible source I can think in that time period?

[Cobra Ned]

3232 was reconstructed in the '79 -'80 time period, when Brian Angliss was indeed supplying alloy bodies (as well as chassis).

[Side-Oilers]

Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

I think so. COCOA went to his place for a tour around 76-77.

[shelbydoug]

Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

McCluskey " had a guy" but I'm not sure that he was actually supplying complete bodies? It was more like he could do a fender or a clip.

Angliss said that he had the original body bucks from AC as I recall so they would be "exact" whatever that means on a hand formed aluminum skin?

There was also some discussion about using thicker walled tubes chassis but I think McClusky could "build" you a chassis.

In addition, someone, probably McClusky was reinforcing the 289 chassis by inserting internal tubes in them. He was saying that many of the 289 chassis were "tweaked" so considering that if the tubes were not straight, I'm not sure how you got a snug fit even if you honed them and pressed the reinforcing tube in the existing one?


I saw the remains of CSX 2127 or 28 that Eber had brought down on a trailer from Montreal. Not only was that one wrecked, but it was burned as well. I haven't looked lately at the Registry but that one I'm sure, is "pristine original, unrestored as raced" these days?

[CSX2259]

So what is the consensus of a car that was built around nothing more than original paperwork and a few bits and pieces that were unrelated to that chassis?
Is it legal to re-stamp another frame and call it that Cobra if you own the title of that car?
Then there was the original frame that was sold when the vehicle was parted out but a transfer of title never took place because the frame was being sold as a component and not a whole car? Then given the values of Cobras whoever had that frame decided to build a Cobra around it, what then?

[Benny]

Concerning the SAAC definition around "Present Condition", is it considered fair to call CSX3232 a "wrecked, parted out & reconstructed" or Destroyed, parted out & reconstructed Cobra? I'm asking the question based on photos & notes from the World Registry of Cobra's website & 4th Edition book & the attached photo.

I believe this is the same Destroyed Cobra.,.......

What's clear in my mind, is todays CSX3232 isn't the Cobra that left Shelby American in April of 1966. That's the perspective I'll take when looking at Shelby's. Thank you for the extra photos.

[Benny]

I believe the story in the Registry says all it needs to in order for anyone to arrive at a rational conclusion as to the fact that 3232 was severely wrecked and ended up eating resurrected from essentially its paperwork, albeit using what appears to have been a genuine Cobra chassis which was presumably renumbered. As to the legal aspects of the Registry and the facts it attempts to lay out, I will only say that I and the other Registrars do our utmost to present correct details, hence none of us are afraid to appear in court to defend our printed statements. Fortunately, we have prevailed whenever we have been dragged into court by an owner who felt wronged by the facts.

Thanks for your comments Ned & firm stance on correct details no matter how an owner may feel.

[Cobra Ned]

Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

No, he was not. But he had a connection from the Pacific Northwest who made the link between him and AutoKraft (Brian Angliss) and was able to acquire as many chassis, bodies, and composites as he needed to rebuild seriously damaged cars, or - in some cases - create new cars from paperwork.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Was McCluskey building bodies from scratch back then?

No, he was not. But he had a connection from the Pacific Northwest who made the link between him and AutoKraft (Brian Angliss) and was able to acquire as many chassis, bodies, and composites as he needed to rebuild seriously damaged cars, or - in some cases - create new cars from paperwork.

Thanks I saw parts and thought he had rolled them there.