How significant are the 1969/70 Shelbys and who really ended their production

[Bob Gaines]

Can't wait to see this thread take off

In my opinion the 69/70s are relevant because it's the end of that generation production - end of an era if you will.   

The 70s have a unique status all their own.  As with any automobile that matures over time they're better GT cars than they are true sports cars; the handling and ride is very good the air-conditioning worked well, the big block cars in the summer in Texas made you feel like you needed asbestos jeans. However the small block is easy to work on, looks good was very reliable.

One of my friends owned about 20 different Shelby's in the 70s, his advice to me was go get a 67 GT 350 four-speed it'll be the best running driving car for what you want. He was right.  I'd really like to have a white, red interior 70 model small block with AC and automatic. I think that would be a tremendous car at 60 for me right now.

I'm sure I'm forgetting many details here. Can't wait to see what others have to comment on. I know having a 428 Cobra Jet Mustang as a kid in the mid 70s, what really frustrated me was the glued in windows.  Who in the world ever thought that was a good idea? It probably saved a nickel a car.

So a 1967 Gt350 Shelby would handle better than a 1969/70 GT350 that had the Boss 302 suspension? Would it be the shocks? How does the 351W do performance wise compared to a 289 hipo both stock? I'm curious to that. I remember running my car at Waterford hills and on the back straightaway gaining on a 67 GT350 every lap. Of course it was my stone stock vert against an unknown condition GT350. I had 3 people in my car also.1989 different times. Got pics at the end of the straightaway of the GT350 right in front of me.  Gary

Gary suspension wise the 67 GT350 and the 69/70 were virtually identical. The big suspension of the later 69/70 didn't help with handling but did with strength and longevity of components. The shocks were identical in function . The two Shelby's weight was comparable apples to apples . The 351 had a little more power but wouldn't rev as high limited by its hydraulic cam.

I'm far from a suspension engineer but wouldn't the larger components help  with less "movement/flexing" when road racing?

Gary even under extreme racing conditions far beyond what you were driving the flexing of the early car spindles is negligible. The same goes for the tie rods. The big suspension parts were stronger and did not break  The point is , there is no measurable difference in handling between small and large suspension cars in the context of your example.

[shelbymann1970]

[/quote]Gary even under extreme racing conditions far beyond what you were driving the flexing of the early car spindles is negligible. The same goes for the tie rods. The big suspension parts were stronger and did not break  The point is , there is no measurable difference in handling between small and large suspension cars in the context of your example.
[/quote]Thanks as always for your expertise Bob. Gary

[FL SAAC]

Gary
The only Shelby that I am aware of that Ford shipped was 9F02G482244 to Kar Kraft. Known as the Shelby (G) Boss . Did K. K. have any other involvement with the regular 1969/70 Shelby production  ?

Gentlemen thanks for the responses. Things we can agree on are:

Three companies where involved in the 1969 / 70 program. Ford, Shelby Automotive and A.O. Smith.

I believe each had an equal amount of leverage in the process.

This complicated the relationship and the introduction of some of the other mustang (boss, mach1 etc) product's would eventually lead to the end of the demise of the Ford, Shelby and A. O. Smith program.

Having three entities involved,  with out clear direction or better yet quick resolution or decision making on daily production issues that may have come up, also caused great discord.

Then you had the question of processing, billing and the questioning of payments or non payments.

This where the program came to a complete halt.

Just my simple two cents. Keep your thoughts, on-site and knowledge  flowing

you forgot Kar Kraft.....Ed?

[Bob Gaines]

Gary
The only Shelby that I am aware of that Ford shipped was 9F02G482244 to Kar Kraft. Known as the Shelby (G) Boss . Did K. K. have any other involvement with the regular 1969/70 Shelby production  ?

Gentlemen thanks for the responses. Things we can agree on are:

Three companies where involved in the 1969 / 70 program. Ford, Shelby Automotive and A.O. Smith.

I believe each had an equal amount of leverage in the process.

This complicated the relationship and the introduction of some of the other mustang (boss, mach1 etc) product's would eventually lead to the end of the demise of the Ford, Shelby and A. O. Smith program.

Having three entities involved,  with out clear direction or better yet quick resolution or decision making on daily production issues that may have come up, also caused great discord.

Then you had the question of processing, billing and the questioning of payments or non payments.

This where the program came to a complete halt.

Just my simple two cents. Keep your thoughts, on-site and knowledge  flowing

you forgot Kar Kraft.....Ed?

The 70 Shelby's were sent to Kar Kraft for 70 conversion process.

[shelbymann1970]

Gary
The only Shelby that I am aware of that Ford shipped was 9F02G482244 to Kar Kraft. Known as the Shelby (G) Boss . Did K. K. have any other involvement with the regular 1969/70 Shelby production  ?

Gentlemen thanks for the responses. Things we can agree on are:

Three companies where involved in the 1969 / 70 program. Ford, Shelby Automotive and A.O. Smith.

I believe each had an equal amount of leverage in the process.

This complicated the relationship and the introduction of some of the other mustang (boss, mach1 etc) product's would eventually lead to the end of the demise of the Ford, Shelby and A. O. Smith program.

Having three entities involved,  with out clear direction or better yet quick resolution or decision making on daily production issues that may have come up, also caused great discord.

Then you had the question of processing, billing and the questioning of payments or non payments.

This where the program came to a complete halt.

Just my simple two cents. Keep your thoughts, on-site and knowledge  flowing

you forgot Kar Kraft.....Ed?

most of the 70s ran through Kar Kraft(according to a friend he vin changed some on Market street in Livonia Mi back in 1969). I knew the painter who painted the hood stripes on the 70s. He posted pics on the Brighton Historical society Facebook page as well as a video of the facility in 1969 when a young Bill Ford(?) visited it and they had a lot of cool cars on display. My 70 went through Brighton. There is a great aerial view that Larry(painter) had commissioned by a pilot to fly over KK and photograph it with Boss 9s and Shelbys in the back parking lot. That pic was "loaned out" to a Mustang "president" and never seen again by him except in publications. HE also had many other pics that I hope someday will surface since he passed away a few years ago. He posted a pic on facebook of the last batch of 70 Shelbys leaving KK in spring of 1970.

[FL SAAC]

Mr Gaines  thank you for the response

So to be clear Kar Kraft was involved with the left over 1969 conversion to 1970s :

Adding stripes on hood
Front spoiler
Possible emmision updates to 70 standards
Stickers to reflect the above
Door V. I. N. sticker on doors with the Fed's supervision


So then actually three companies where truly involed in the 1969 program, Ford,  Shelby and A. O. Smith.

[shelbymann1970]

Mr Gaines  thank you for the response

So to be clear Kar Kraft was involved with the left over 1969 conversion to 1970s :

Adding stripes on hood
Front spoiler
Possible emmision updates to 70 standards
Stickers to reflect the above
Door V. I. N. sticker on doors with the Fed's supervision


So then actually three companies where truly involed in the 1969 program, Ford,  Shelby and A. O. Smith.

I thought I was CLEAR ENOUGH? Larry's photos from KK in spring of 70. BTW Front spoiler done by dealers. I have pics of Larry actually painting the hood stripes at KK. Just not here at work. I also have paperwork thanks to Mongo of my car leaving KK to Wixom holding facility to be shipped by rail to the east coast for export.

[FL SAAC]

Mr Gary you where clear and I thank you for your response

Mr Gaines just added additional information and I rehashed it.

Mr Gaines  thank you for the response

So to be clear Kar Kraft was involved with the left over 1969 conversion to 1970s :

Adding stripes on hood
Front spoiler
Possible emmision updates to 70 standards
Stickers to reflect the above
Door V. I. N. sticker on doors with the Fed's supervision


So then actually three companies where truly involed in the 1969 program, Ford,  Shelby and A. O. Smith.

I thought I was CLEAR ENOUGH? Larry's photos from KK in spring of 70. BTW Front spoiler done by dealers. I have pics of Larry actually painting the hood stripes at KK. Just not here at work. I also have paperwork thanks to Mongo of my car leaving KK to Wixom holding facility to be shipped by rail to the east coast for export.

[Bob Gaines]

Mr Gaines  thank you for the response

So to be clear Kar Kraft was involved with the left over 1969 conversion to 1970s :

Adding stripes on hood
Front spoiler
Possible emmision updates to 70 standards
Stickers to reflect the above
Door V. I. N. sticker on doors with the Fed's supervision


So then actually three companies where truly involed in the 1969 program, Ford,  Shelby and A. O. Smith.

I thought I was CLEAR ENOUGH? Larry's photos from KK in spring of 70. BTW Front spoiler done by dealers. I have pics of Larry actually painting the hood stripes at KK. Just not here at work. I also have paperwork thanks to Mongo of my car leaving KK to Wixom holding facility to be shipped by rail to the east coast for export.

Larry Lawrence KK painter.

[FL SAAC]

Back to the topic:

How significant are the 1969/70 Shelbys and who really ended their production ?

Who really was the cause of the demise of the Shelby program ?

Ford
Shelby
A. O. Smith
Internal developments (Ford new Mustangs)
Why are we paying royalties and advisory fees
Insurance
Consumers
Market changes
Oil
Other

[shelbymann1970]

Mr Gaines  thank you for the response

So to be clear Kar Kraft was involved with the left over 1969 conversion to 1970s :

Adding stripes on hood
Front spoiler
Possible emmision updates to 70 standards
Stickers to reflect the above
Door V. I. N. sticker on doors with the Fed's supervision


So then actually three companies where truly involed in the 1969 program, Ford,  Shelby and A. O. Smith.

I thought I was CLEAR ENOUGH? Larry's photos from KK in spring of 70. BTW Front spoiler done by dealers. I have pics of Larry actually painting the hood stripes at KK. Just not here at work. I also have paperwork thanks to Mongo of my car leaving KK to Wixom holding facility to be shipped by rail to the east coast for export.

Larry Lawrence KK painter.

Thank you Bob for posting the pic of Larry(RIP). I'm on a "loaner" computer at work until IT fixes mine so no access to pics I have here. The other 3 above I pulled off the Brighton FB page. I thought Larry had that one you posted  and the front view of that car on the FB page but must have missed it. Do you have a pic of the aerial view? Bob, Mark Haas and I talked for a little while with Larry not long before he passed away at his body shop not far from the old KK building. He walked us down memory lane on his stint there as a painter. How he got the job as a 19 year old assembler at the Wixom plant and the issues with 69 B9 hood scoops(probably why they were all black in 70). Never got back to ask him more questions before he passed away.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

........ at the time they were very significant. The bare bones may have been a mustang, but the appearance was very different and stood out as something special.  .......

This points out the pure and simple fact that later Shelbys were nothing more than dolled up Mustangs.
65 had improved engines and suspensions - Ford designed the suspension changes
66 early had the same but later the suspensions changes would be dropped
67 Ford designer Charlie McHose was assigned to SA to create a new look and guide GT500 creation. Stock suspension same 65/6 engine mods, 428
Mid 67 - Ford assumes all assets and trademarks of SA over unpaid 1962 startup loan - CS becomes race team contractor only.
67s with Z on serial number plate were done under Ford ownership - All dealers could now order Shelby's ($100 fee added if not a Shelby dealer)
68 Ford does it all - mid year the 428 CJ is available in Mustangs not just GT500
69 All Ford again.
Dec 1970 all of Shelby's contracts (parts, racing, personal services) end with Ford Motor Company.
Ford unplugs Shelby Automotive at the same time (warranty charges still go against the company for accounting)
68-70 were styling changes the same chassis parts and engines were available in regular Mustangs. Buyers saw through the fact that they were no longer at the top of the performance food chain. That spot was held by the lighter/cheaper Mach1.
I guess you could divide the 69-70 into several groups - pedestrian 6 cyl & 302 Coupe/Sportroof - pedestrian performance 351 428 Coupe/Sportroof -
dress up cars Mach1 and Shelby and finally the the real performance cars Boss 302 and 429.
History repeated itself in 06 when SVT designed the new hi performance Mustang and decided to use CS as a marketing tool to sell it. Their earlier GT350 Fox Mustang and SVT/Cobra monikers were not enough to boost the sales to make them a profit center.
The Las Vegas Shelby American built Shelby GT was panned in many magazines for charging a $9,000 premium and only adding $2,500 worth of Ford Performance parts.
The recent demise of the Bullitt and GT350 are nothing more than marketing driven. They were tired of paying the McQueen family per car (I predict there will soon be a supercharged Mach1 and the 500 will be gone - or at least they will drop Shelby (so they can save that money and just call it the GT500).

[shelbymann1970]

........ at the time they were very significant. The bare bones may have been a mustang, but the appearance was very different and stood out as something special.  .......

This points out the pure and simple fact that later Shelbys were nothing more than dolled up Mustangs.
65 had improved engines and suspensions - Ford designed the suspension changes
66 early had the same but later the suspensions changes would be dropped
67 Ford designer Charlie McHose was assigned to SA to create a new look and guide GT500 creation. Stock suspension same 65/6 engine mods, 428
Mid 67 - Ford assumes all assets and trademarks of SA over unpaid 1962 startup loan - CS becomes race team contractor only.
67s with Z on serial number plate were done under Ford ownership - All dealers could now order Shelby's ($100 fee added if not a Shelby dealer)
68 Ford does it all - mid year the 428 CJ is available in Mustangs not just GT500
69 All Ford again.
Dec 1970 all of Shelby's contracts (parts, racing, personal services) end with Ford Motor Company.
Ford unplugs Shelby Automotive at the same time (warranty charges still go against the company for accounting)
68-70 were styling changes the same chassis parts and engines were available in regular Mustangs. Buyers saw through the fact that they were no longer at the top of the performance food chain. That spot was held by the lighter/cheaper Mach1.
I guess you could divide the 69-70 into several groups - pedestrian 6 cyl & 302 Coupe/Sportroof - pedestrian performance 351 428 Coupe/Sportroof -
dress up cars Mach1 and Shelby and finally the the real performance cars Boss 302 and 429.
History repeated itself in 06 when SVT designed the new hi performance Mustang and decided to use CS as a marketing tool to sell it. Their earlier GT350 Fox Mustang and SVT/Cobra monikers were not enough to boost the sales to make them a profit center.
The Las Vegas Shelby American built Shelby GT was panned in many magazines for charging a $9,000 premium and only adding $2,500 worth of Ford Performance parts.
The recent demise of the Bullitt and GT350 are nothing more than marketing driven. They were tired of paying the McQueen family per car (I predict there will soon be a supercharged Mach1 and the 500 will be gone - or at least they will drop Shelby (so they can save that money and just call it the GT500).

you said Ford took over mid year. I wasn't aware the Z meant Ford? Also Brian's SA documents if I remember correctly had Ford taking over the first week of October 1966-hardly midyear? Can you please clarify? Did Ford take over producing Shelbys in Oct 1966 or midway through production? Thanks. Gary
BTW the69  Mach1 was cheaper but where do you find it was lighter? Is fiberglass heavier than steel? What was the modification of a 289 HiPo in 1967? Did regular Mustangs get the Holley carb, Al intake in the J code cars? GT500s had 428s in 68 well before the CJ came out? 69s you couldn't get an AL intake or valve covers on the regular Mustang. Real performance cars the boss 302 or Boss 429?I think a drag pack GT500 would run circles around a Boss 302 performance wise. How many drag racers pulled the B9 out and put an FE into their cars to go drag racing? Same FE that was in the GT500s in some cases.  I think you need to "revise" your post.

[FL SAAC]

Let me congratulate you on a superb dissertation!

But back to the topic:

How significant are the 1969/70 Shelbys and who really ended their production ?

Who really was the cause of the demise of the Shelby program ?

Ford
Shelby
A. O. Smith
Internal developments (Ford new Mustangs)
Why are we paying royalties and advisory fees
Insurance
Consumers
Market changes
Oil
Other

........ at the time they were very significant. The bare bones may have been a mustang, but the appearance was very different and stood out as something special.  .......

This points out the pure and simple fact that later Shelbys were nothing more than dolled up Mustangs.
65 had improved engines and suspensions - Ford designed the suspension changes
66 early had the same but later the suspensions changes would be dropped
67 Ford designer Charlie McHose was assigned to SA to create a new look and guide GT500 creation. Stock suspension same 65/6 engine mods, 428
Mid 67 - Ford assumes all assets and trademarks of SA over unpaid 1962 startup loan - CS becomes race team contractor only.
67s with Z on serial number plate were done under Ford ownership - All dealers could now order Shelby's ($100 fee added if not a Shelby dealer)
68 Ford does it all - mid year the 428 CJ is available in Mustangs not just GT500
69 All Ford again.
Dec 1970 all of Shelby's contracts (parts, racing, personal services) end with Ford Motor Company.
Ford unplugs Shelby Automotive at the same time (warranty charges still go against the company for accounting)
68-70 were styling changes the same chassis parts and engines were available in regular Mustangs. Buyers saw through the fact that they were no longer at the top of the performance food chain. That spot was held by the lighter/cheaper Mach1.
I guess you could divide the 69-70 into several groups - pedestrian 6 cyl & 302 Coupe/Sportroof - pedestrian performance 351 428 Coupe/Sportroof -
dress up cars Mach1 and Shelby and finally the the real performance cars Boss 302 and 429.
History repeated itself in 06 when SVT designed the new hi performance Mustang and decided to use CS as a marketing tool to sell it. Their earlier GT350 Fox Mustang and SVT/Cobra monikers were not enough to boost the sales to make them a profit center.
The Las Vegas Shelby American built Shelby GT was panned in many magazines for charging a $9,000 premium and only adding $2,500 worth of Ford Performance parts.
The recent demise of the Bullitt and GT350 are nothing more than marketing driven. They were tired of paying the McQueen family per car (I predict there will soon be a supercharged Mach1 and the 500 will be gone - or at least they will drop Shelby (so they can save that money and just call it the GT500).

[PrettyMuchAShelbyGuy]

IMO, Ford wanting (taking) control from Shelby American.  Carroll getting pissed, telling Ford to get lost & going an entirely different direction (Africa, Reno - motel & dealership, etc.). May not be 100% accurate, but generally from the dozen or so books I have read over the years...