How significant are the 1969/70 Shelbys and who really ended their production

[PrettyMuchAShelbyGuy]

Not sure of all the reasons you raise - quite possibly non-performance, I dunno.  I read all those books in the 70's through the early 90's - long time ago, then sold them all to fund a GT40 along with a bunch of other CS/Bill Neale memorabilia.  You are right on the (limited) ability to manufacture - Hank did the assembly line thing, CS for the most part did not...  So, no doubt there...  I think however the issue(s) you are raising have more to do about the perspective of all those who "wrote those books"...  It's not my PoV...It was CS & his 'cronies' for the most part.  In any event, I can assure you it was not Hank the Duce or Ford in general....hence the juandiced perspective(s) published.

IMO, Ford wanting (taking) control from Shelby American.  Carroll getting pissed, telling Ford to get lost & going an entirely different direction (Africa, Reno - motel & dealership, etc.). May not be 100% accurate, but generally from the dozen or so books I have read over the years...

Sorry I missed your post, as you raise good questions:

Ford wanting (taking) control from Shelby American. 

Why for non performance on S.A. part ?

Carroll getting pissed, telling Ford to get lost & going an entirely different direction (Africa, Reno - motel & dealership, etc.).

Or Ford again not happy with compliance or production results. One has to acknowledge making 500 widgets the first year was a challenge.  Come year two and three, are you ramped up to handle an additional demand on widgets ?

I don't think CS and crew had the ability, man power, resources to continue their product growth.  Sometimes  your worst enemy is your very own success


May not be 100% accurate, but generally from the dozen or so books I have read over the years...

Alrighty

[FL SAAC]

So in essence we can only say that this process did produce one of the most unique Shelbys of its time, with more parts made specifically for this particular model than any other.
Where do we begin to behold the glory of this spectacular specimens in the history of the known universe . How about that front end all those scoops and vents on the hood and fenders making you think this car was from outer space . That snake on the grille so menacing. The rear end wants to say hi, hello, how are ya and how do you do with its sequential tail lights, a true touring car and a brutal torque monster motor could be had.  This is true Americana, the 1969 S H E L B Y

[eric lipper]

My sense is that production ended because what was the point of making a Shelby when Shelby was gone and Ford had plenty of performance already in house.  I will say that when I drive my 69 GT500 and my 69 Boss 429 that the Boss 9 definitely seems a lot racier -- whether it is or not who knows?  If you drive a 66 GT350 it is truly a great all around car.  The 67 GT500 still has a lot of early car feel.  My 69 GT500 seems a lot softer and less edgy.  Ford may have sold a lot more square birds but I will take a 55 - 57 over them all day long.

[shelbydoug]

They were, are and shall always remain very significant and influential. Their influences still can be seen in current Fomoco offerings.

They were ended more for a Ford Corporate identity crisis as much as anything. That won't ever change and if you look at all Ford current offerings that seems to still be present.

The Ford GT's suggest that very strongly I think as well as e-powered Mustang SUV's and other brand names Corporate is attempting to hold on to.



Shelby and Shelby's have always been just another Ford Corporate vehicle to use or abuse as seen necessary.

Shelby is something that was essentially created by Ford and has remnants of being a "Frankenstein Monster" they created and that sometimes can't control to their liking. The comment Iococca made about "we better give that guy something before he comes back to bite us" was very prophetic and still is.

Corporate treats people like racing horses or dogs. You flog them until they are done, then you look for new ones. Same as it ever was.



Shelby has become a bight light of a public icon and it's doubtful that it can ever be completely extinguished. It's concept is not a singularity and is surprisingly multidimensional for a car. Simply put, it's because it is more then just a car. It's an end desire. The '69's and '70's are an outstanding illustration of that.

I seriously doubt that they will be forgotten anytime soon.

[6R07mi]

Another factor I don't recall seeing mentioned is the expiration of the lease on Imperial Hwy.

1. Production would have to move somewhere else
2. the problems with the 67 program had solutions (from Ford's view) of more control/management from Dearborn
3. With more control from Dearborn, production moving to Ionia/Metuchen, why have any CA involvement?
4. With more internal Ford performance vehicle development (KK, Trans-Am, Boss programs), SAI becomes a burden
5. CS "agreement with Ford circa 1962 had a 5 yr expiration, so by 1967 the relationship would change no matter what
6. Corporate entities do not work well with outside contractors, i.e. they do not conform to the corporate structure, this is exactly what SAI was, "non-corporate" CA racers
7. eventually the $'s going to SAI would get reigned in by financial side of corporation, even HF-II wouldn't protect CS
8. as mentioned other priorities begin to push performance / halo cars (Shelby/Cobra) aside, safety (Ralph Nader), emissions, insurance pressure, global Ford expansion
9. The slow death began with Ford takeover of 1967 production, it just took until late 1969 to call "the time of death"

just my humble opinion, FWIW

jim p

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Shelby and Shelby's have always been just another Ford Corporate vehicle to use or abuse as seen necessary.

Shelby is something that was essentially created by Ford and has remnants of being a "Frankenstein Monster" they created and that sometimes can't control to their liking. The comment Iococca made about "we better give that guy something before he comes back to bite us" was very prophetic and still is.

Corporate treats people like racing horses or dogs. You flog them until they are done, then you look for new ones. Same as it ever was.

Shelby has become a bight light of a public icon and it's doubtful that it can ever be completely extinguished. It's concept is not a singularity and is surprisingly multidimensional for a car. Simply put, it's because it is more then just a car. It's an end desire. The '69's and '70's are an outstanding illustration of that.

I seriously doubt that they will be forgotten anytime soon.

Shelby created Shelby. Don't forget he went to Chevrolet for engines first. They turned him down because they already had the Corvette.
Iacocca the marketing guy thought he could get some good ink for 2 engines and $25,000 so he bought the story.
The ink generated more interest in Ford so the marketing and engineering dept poured more $ into SA.
By 1970 Ford was tired of pouring money down the drain on SCCA race cars that weren't televised to the masses and kept their NASCAR teams.
Shelby was also done with the automotive world and went to Africa.
There were a few Cobra/Shelby clubs enjoying the cars but it wasn't until SAAC came along that the cars started to get respect. Guarding the heritage and getting them in magazines brought their collectability and rarity into the spotlight.
SAAC got Shelby re-involved when they invited him to SAAC 1 in Oakland and he enjoyed the spotlight.
Ford performance efforts went under misc programs - Motorsport - SVO - SVT all with little success even adding GT350 to a Fox body didn't increase sales. They did see better success by adding Cobra to them but it still was not a giant boost in sales.
When marketing looking to sell the latest SVT supercharged retro looking Mustang they decided to stick GT500 on it. From previous experience they knew just the GT500 moniker would not boost sales to make a real profit center out of the car.
They paid the McQueen family a per car deal to use Bullitt and it sold well.
Someone figured adding Shelby to the car would boost sales. CS wanted BIG number per car to use his name (they already owned GT500). In lieu of a per car deal they signed him to a 15 million 5 year personal services contract.
Ford worked CS like a dog for their money - lots of visits and time on the road at dealer events etc.
The cars sold well with Ford using Shelby as the face of performance and he was able to parley his re involvement with Ford to sell some of his own cars.
Now seeing that GT350 and Bullitt alone aren't selling cars they have dumped them and just like in the 70s are going with Mach-1 which also ties in with the Mach-E and helps Ford who wants to make the Mustang name as a brand in of itself with cars and SUVs - don't be surprised if the next Mustang that is being developed on the Explorer chassis has a V6 Hybrid as it's top performer. Maybe now that Ford has realized it's mistake of no more cars just Mustangs, trucks and SUVs they will add a 4 door to the Mustang lineup and create 2 companies Ford for truck & SUV and Mustang for cars - like Fiat did breaking up Chrysler into 3 companies - Ram trucks - Jeep and Dodge.

[FL SAAC]

Very well expressed l, let's see what happens in the next chapter, to be continued or not ...

Shelby created Shelby. Don't forget he went to Chevrolet for engines first. They turned him down because they already had the Corvette.
Iacocca the marketing guy thought he could get some good ink for 2 engines and $25,000 so he bought the story.
The ink generated more interest in Ford so the marketing and engineering dept poured more $ into SA.
By 1970 Ford was tired of pouring money down the drain on SCCA race cars that weren't televised to the masses and kept their NASCAR teams.
Shelby was also done with the automotive world and went to Africa.
There were a few Cobra/Shelby clubs enjoying the cars but it wasn't until SAAC came along that the cars started to get respect. Guarding the heritage and getting them in magazines brought their collectability and rarity into the spotlight.
SAAC got Shelby re-involved when they invited him to SAAC 1 in Oakland and he enjoyed the spotlight.
Ford performance efforts went under misc programs - Motorsport - SVO - SVT all with little success even adding GT350 to a Fox body didn't increase sales. They did see better success by adding Cobra to them but it still was not a giant boost in sales.
When marketing looking to sell the latest SVT supercharged retro looking Mustang they decided to stick GT500 on it. From previous experience they knew just the GT500 moniker would not boost sales to make a real profit center out of the car.
They paid the McQueen family a per car deal to use Bullitt and it sold well.
Someone figured adding Shelby to the car would boost sales. CS wanted BIG number per car to use his name (they already owned GT500). In lieu of a per car deal they signed him to a 15 million 5 year personal services contract.
Ford worked CS like a dog for their money - lots of visits and time on the road at dealer events etc.
The cars sold well with Ford using Shelby as the face of performance and he was able to parley his re involvement with Ford to sell some of his own cars.
Now seeing that GT350 and Bullitt alone aren't selling cars they have dumped them and just like in the 70s are going with Mach-1 which also ties in with the Mach-E and helps Ford who wants to make the Mustang name as a brand in of itself with cars and SUVs - don't be surprised if the next Mustang that is being developed on the Explorer chassis has a V6 Hybrid as it's top performer. Maybe now that Ford has realized it's mistake of no more cars just Mustangs, trucks and SUVs they will add a 4 door to the Mustang lineup and create 2 companies Ford for truck & SUV and Mustang for cars - like Fiat did breaking up Chrysler into 3 companies - Ram trucks - Jeep and Dodge.

[cj750]

It was over when Shelby got a good look at the '71 prototype and said "You can't pay me enough to put my name on that!"

[shelbymann1970]

It was over when Shelby got a good look at the '71 prototype and said "You can't pay me enough to put my name on that!"

While that sounds good this prototype pretty much says Ford was on the path to produce Shelbys into the 70s. According to documents Ford asked AO Smith to build the 70s but they declined effectively killing the program. Wasn't the Bosses, Wasn't the Mach1s. Lots of interesting comments but documents tell the story. So lets kill this topic now. Gary

[shelbydoug]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

[427hunter]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

I think what actully happened from 1962-1970 invalidates those quotes you cite.

[shelbydoug]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

I think what actully happened from 1962-1970 invalidates those quotes you cite.

In what way? He made those comments well after production was over and when he was around us. Charlotte in 81 or 2 and again in 87. I was standing next to him.

People would ask him questions like why didn't you put roll bars in the 65 and 66 and he would say "I don't know, I had nothing to do with them".

[427hunter]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

I think what actully happened from 1962-1970 invalidates those quotes you cite.

In what way? He made them well after that when he was around us.

If you are unaware of where 65,66,67 were made and the production changes, SA's involvement in SCCA, AHRA, sponsored drivers, etc (too much to list) then I don't know what to tell you. The man had his hand in everything racing during that period. SA was his company and that is his direct involvement; under your way of thinking he had zero involvement in any car, because in reality he didn't turn a wrench.

[shelbydoug]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

I think what actully happened from 1962-1970 invalidates those quotes you cite.

In what way? He made them well after that when he was around us.

If you are unaware of where 65,66,67 were made and the production changes, SA's involvement in SCCA, AHRA, sponsored drivers, etc (too much to list) then I don't know what to tell you. The man had his hand in everything racing during that period. SA was his company and that is his direct involvement; under your way of thinking he had zero involvement in any car, because in reality he didn't turn a wrench.

I am quite aware of it. Apparently you aren't aware of what he said after all of that ended?

[427hunter]

Shelby was quoted as saying many times more then once, that "the only GT350 I had anything to do with was the '65".

Another quote was "I don't care anything about the Trans Am and those cars".

I love the guy and miss him but I look at the reality as much as I can but Ford was and still is the "money man" and runs the show.

Even Iaccoca was just an employee as "Ford v. Ferrari" attempts to illustrate.



I didn't keep track of when Iaccoca departs Ford but by the time of the end of the "Shelby GT" run, Shel was done and already in Africa taking the elites of the world on hunting expeditions on his "reserve".

HIS car was the Cobra. He accepted the GT40 project to beat Ferrari and the initial GT350 to as Iaccoca said "jazz up the Mustang".

What precisely happened within Ford Corporate is likely very similar to what was speculated in Ford v. Ferrari.

All of the "Shelby's creations" are forever iconic and still remain influential. They likely always will. Ford is the elephant in the room here and whether or not one accepts that doesn't change anything.



The other significant factor that is present is how Shelby influenced Ford's thinking as well as other manufacturers AND THE MARKET PLACE and that IS an almost "God like achievement" for a mere mortal who rose from chicken farming.

Ford jumped on an opportunity with Shelby and renamed an arm of their production train, the Shelby train. It can be said of Ford that they are a lot of things, some of which are kind of ugly but you can't criticize Ford with lacking vision, at least at that time.


Like in the story of the "Frankenstein 'Monster'" to this day, they are attempting to resurrect those 'monsters' by shooting new life into identifiable product names that they created that in fact may be only distant relatives of the originals.

As the quote at the end of the Le mans race goes Miles says "they are out there selling cars already aren't they Shel?" to which he replies, "that's what they do Bulldog".




There is another "story" that is involved in this that so far none have mentioned and maybe should? There was a novel, you know, a book. Those things with way too many printed pages with lots of words on them bound together?

It was called "The Betsy". Now in this story a powerful automotive industrialist gives a job to the son of a distant friend out of keeping a promise to his friend. The "rumor" or suggestion was that the industrialist was Henry Ford and the friend's son was Lee Iaccoca.


Which player in all of this is the critical factor and which is a catalyst? Quite a debate and maybe there should be a book or a movie about it to stimulate further "discussions"?

I vote movie. Those books can get heavy and if you drop one on your foot can do a lot of damage. Plus I already have one book. How many do you really need?

The reality is there is no SIMPLE answer. It's complicated. 

I think what actully happened from 1962-1970 invalidates those quotes you cite.

In what way? He made them well after that when he was around us.

If you are unaware of where 65,66,67 were made and the production changes, SA's involvement in SCCA, AHRA, sponsored drivers, etc (too much to list) then I don't know what to tell you. The man had his hand in everything racing during that period. SA was his company and that is his direct involvement; under your way of thinking he had zero involvement in any car, because in reality he didn't turn a wrench.

I am quite aware of it. Apparently you aren't aware of what he said after all of that ended?

He didn't turn a wrench on a 65 either so what's your point ?