Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT

[SBCARGUY]

It looked to me like this thread did start out about the out-of- the-ordinary price paid for such a car that was not 100% correct and quickly spiraled into more. The seller did mention a few times in his comments that he reached out to an "expert" or two for advise and even offered to pay for their time to assess the car, but received no reply back to assist him.  Who exactly did he reach out to?  It sounds like the seller tried to do his due diligence before selling the car. 

There would definitely be an issue for a buyer and seller of any car if the car has been re-bodied or fraudulently and knowingly mis-represented (I am not making any accusations about this particular GT500KR because I have never examined it in person or had any interest in it).  As Mr. Lea stated, "Re-bodies are real they exist there are even people here on the forum that have done them and should be exposed for what they are".  I agree that anyone who is guilty of this and knowingly represents a car for what it really isn't should be publicly exposed along with the car itself so the next seller/buyer are aware of what the car really is.  We do not need people like this in the hobby.
It certainly is unfortunate that the integrity of some of these cars is lost by "armchair critics".  When something on a car is in question, it may deserve an in person inspection by an expert to answer and/or disqualify any assumptions made about the car.

Just my 2 cents.

Very Well Said. 

[TLea]

When should I show up for sentencing?

One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.

Actually my name is very clear. TLea is Tim Lea. I am and always have been very transparent. Do you want my phone number, my email address. The names of my children?
Your sentencing, shows your ignorance. It is about the car not about you. You sold The car and got a good price for it. Congratulations I wish you the best. I still have reservations about the car (not you). If I saw the car in person I might feel different.

[427hunter]

When should I show up for sentencing?

One of my more interesting observations through the years, loudest forum voices have no real names presented.

Don't get too worked up over the trolling here, the SAAC forum went down the drain a while ago. The critics for the most part have nothing but their opinions, ask them to post their cars for comparison.

[67 GT350]

OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .

Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C

From what I see and know of Stephen, he seems to be a straight shooter, he only deals with quality. Will not touch a car with bad history. In other words, if you buy something from him, IT IS RIGHT. (MY opinion)

I probably was into Shelbys before a lot of people here, so what? Being a SAAC member or not really does not matter. I would bet there are many out there who have nice cars that could care less how long they were involved. Take a pill, people, and allow opinions to be expressed.

[whiteykr]

Since you quoted me I will respond to you 67 GT 350.
When a friend of mine is attacked ie Jeff Speegle I will defend him.I said what I had to say to S Becker.
The fact that I have owned my cars so long is called credibility. I do all of my own work and I am very knowledgeable on KRs . So when you say ,so what , you don't know what you are talking about. I would test what I know on KRs against you anytime.
You are right that many people could care less how long someone has owned a car. But when opinions are expressed that are wrong or hurt people , they need to be addressed.
Maybe you should take a pill because nothing on this forum would cause me to take a pill.
I will not waste anymore time with you publicly. If you want to continue this we can do it via PM.
By the way, my name is Brad Sanders for transparency.

[shelbymann1970]

OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelby's since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I don't remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I don't give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .

Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C

From what I see and know of Stephen, he seems to be a straight shooter, he only deals with quality. Will not touch a car with bad history. In other words, if you buy something from him, IT IS RIGHT. (MY opinion)

I probably was into Shelbys before a lot of people here, so what? Being a SAAC member or not really does not matter. I would bet there are many out there who have nice cars that could care less how long they were involved. Take a pill, people, and allow opinions to be expressed.

Let me be clear here on my post you quoted me: I was responding to a guy who didn't know who Stephen was it appears. I basically said who he was(longtime Shelby dealer). I've seen his cars for sale for decades. Talked to him before. Do not TAKE my post as a negative comment against Steve. It isn't.  The second part is true to any classic car dealer when it comes to sales. Gary

[Scott_Ales]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

[shelbydoug]

I'll take another shot too...there is no such thing as a SAAC Certified expert. Recommendations are made on previous personal experience.

How you reach someone who is willing to come and evaluate the car, is willing to do so AND is qualified is questionable.

You may be best off with one of the very experienced MCA, SAAC Concourse Judges versed in your model?

Perhaps place a wanted ad for such or a post in the section you are interested in, i.e., 68 KR etc.

SOME of them however are the ones that shall we say, you have been debating with here or are seemingly somewhat at odds with. There is one that I can think of but avoided the entire thread. He would be the major consideration if it were me looking for an academic evaluation.

[shelbymann1970]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

[Scott_Ales]

Thanks, others may be at odds with me.  But I am not with them.  Everyone has something to contribute, how that is offered is sometimes off putting. 

Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective on the matter.  If you put yourself in any person's position be it a broker, dealer, family member, or not passionate corporate seller, you can certainly see the issue here.  No definitive source or process to pursue, unquantified costs needing case by case negotiation and potential availability challenges of multiple persons.  Some more than others on both points, and the difficulty of bias toward or against anything or anyone. Then there is the inter-member challenges where a person is chosen but some in the community question their knowledge or assessments.

It's a minefield. And regardless of your efforts over the past 45 years as a total gearhead and passionate brand person, your integrity WILL be challenged. 

[Scott_Ales]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Gary,

Please take a minute to read the tilt-away portion of the comments.  I learned so much from that experience and immediately documented there is a small divot right where that switch should be.  Under the paint.  The response by one of the BaT commenters seemed on target and made sense.  They are complicated contraptions to keep working and many have elected to replace them with tilt only versions. 

Take note of my initial response time of 11:09 pm Sept. 1st.  Then maybe read the exchange afterwards and through the next morning for additional insight to how I respond.

With regard to date coded panels.  Tell me where to look, and what panels you found unusual.  The car hasn't left our facility yet and I am curious.  Since I personally Dryce cleaned the entire underside, I was very impressed with what I saw.  Please consider also that I trained people in paintless dent removal in the late 1980s and have a keen eye still.  Even at 59. 

But mostly, I want to thank you for taking the time to communicate with me constructively.
 

[shelbymann1970]

Thanks, others may be at odds with me.  But I am not with them.  Everyone has something to contribute, how that is offered is sometimes off putting. 

Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective on the matter.  If you put yourself in any person's position be it a broker, dealer, family member, or not passionate corporate seller, you can certainly see the issue here.  No definitive source or process to pursue, unquantified costs needing case by case negotiation and potential availability challenges of multiple persons.  Some more than others on both points, and the difficulty of bias toward or against anything or anyone. Then there is the inter-member challenges where a person is chosen but some in the community question their knowledge or assessments.

It's a minefield. And regardless of your efforts over the past 45 years as a total gearhead and passionate brand person, your integrity WILL be challenged. 

there is the saying "jack of all trades ,master of none". That could easily be put forth in the  car industry. You are a dealer. I have seen some of the cars you have sold on BaT and that is just a small snapshot of decades in your business. I don't know you but because of your time and the  spectrum of cars you sell you know quality but maybe do not know the ins and outs of every marque you sell. Here, you are dealing with those who are mostly geared to one or 2 marques that they have educated themselves on for decades. I have owned around 30 first Gen Mustangs the most being 1969. I know a lot about 1969s. I have owned 2 first gen Camaros and until recently knew a little about them but gaining more knowledge through BaT on them. I don't need an expert to buy a 69 or 70 Mustang or Shelby but might for a 69 Z/28 or a 67 Vette. I, for one, am not at odds with you. Nor am I with the buyer. Covid  and Crypto it appears has brought a buying frenzy in the last year. Cars that brought money we would have never seen a few years ago. That's the market these days. Gary

[427hunter]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't? 

[CharlesTurner]

Taking a birds eye view of this, it should be obvious that a high percentage of members/contributors here give feedback with no expectation of anything in return.  There are those with decades of experience that share their knowledge freely.  There are differing interests, some like concours, some like racing, some like modified cars.  There is always room for everyone in the club/hobby.  We all need each other to keep the club/hobby moving forward. 

Lashing out and blaming others for inadequacies will not go very far as seen here and turns things to crap in an instant.  There are some legitimate concerns about the body of the KR that should be taken seriously.  Nobody here likes to see a deal go sour as most times when that happens, those involved become bitter and turn their interests elsewhere.

As for how to learn more and doing a better job at representing/describing cars for sale... there is a wealth of knowledge here from others that offer cars up for sale on a regular basis.  Taking collective feedback from various sellers is the most sensible approach with that.  Otherwise, the best way to learn about the finer details is to do restoration or partial restoration work, come to national shows and observe well done cars, get involved in the judging, begin a photo collection of original/restored cars to refer back to, get involved in the forum... these are just a few of the things one can do.

[shelbydoug]

There IS NO pleasing everyone.

I'm an Architect, a Contractor and a Master Carpenter. Everyone is a critic. EVERYONE.

If you got paid, got all your money and didn't get sued, move on. You are a success.


For the past 50 years I withdraw myself to my own garage and shop. It locks from the inside. I don't care who likes or dislikes what I did and why. Period.

Oh...and I'm married 35 years...I've adjusted to disappoint.


I understand that you want to do the right thing BUT you will NEVER get everyone else to agree. Did I say NEVER? Five year olds will question why you didn't use purple or why the nails you used are so big.

Sexy models will question why you need a 7 liter engine and a 4 speed STICK?


In my case I've always been TOO. Too tall. Too short. Too smart. Too Dumb...and on and on and on, etc, etc. etc.


You've won. You win when you have accomplished what you set out to do, oh. and I'm TOO old to. I'm 72. Lot's of documentation to go along with what I stated.

My advice view is just move on. Put this in it's own chapter of your memoirs. My kids won't read mine anymore. They think that I over embellish?