Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT

[shelbymann1970]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?

Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY.

[shelbymann1970]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Gary,

Please take a minute to read the tilt-away portion of the comments.  I learned so much from that experience and immediately documented there is a small divot right where that switch should be.  Under the paint.  The response by one of the BaT commenters seemed on target and made sense.  They are complicated contraptions to keep working and many have elected to replace them with tilt only versions. 

Take note of my initial response time of 11:09 pm Sept. 1st.  Then maybe read the exchange afterwards and through the next morning for additional insight to how I respond.

With regard to date coded panels.  Tell me where to look, and what panels you found unusual.  The car hasn't left our facility yet and I am curious.  Since I personally Dryce cleaned the entire underside, I was very impressed with what I saw.  Please consider also that I trained people in paintless dent removal in the late 1980s and have a keen eye still.  Even at 59. 

But mostly, I want to thank you for taking the time to communicate with me constructively.

I took some of your pics and circled the areas of sheet metal you can easily check now or on future cars you may purchase and  what some here were talking about. I can post the pics or send them to you in an email Scott. Your call. Can't post pics in messages. You can message me your email and I'll contact you. Just trying to help and to be clear I am NOT saying it was a rebody like 427 Hunter accused me of. Gary

[427hunter]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?

Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY. Yeah, I'll report your lack of understanding and accusations!

There is no lack of understanding here, your diatribe on car based on your observation and then statements on the lower value of re-bodies is called "context".   

[shelbymann1970]

I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO

There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Read Scott's post above:



Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?

Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY. Yeah, I'll report your lack of understanding and accusations!

There is no lack of understanding here, your diatribe on car based on your observation and then statements on the lower value of re-bodies is called "context".   

Read his asking what to do in the red. My answers and plausible reasons. Most rebodies come from rust free cars. This car appears to have had apron work done which generally would make no sense on a rebody.  I know what I meant when I posted and was trying to help. You are trying to put word or accusations on me and that comes from your last of ability to understand when someone tells you what they were doing and you cannot comprehend that. SMH. I will type SLOWLY for you.... I am not accusing this car of being a rebody. I could only even come to  an  understanding like that by physically inspecting the car or from date codes given to me from a car. I have not seen one or done the other. SMH

[Scott_Ales]

I'm trying to learn, like what happened with the Tilt-Away wheel concern.  I love that kind of thing!

I had a high level 428 CJ Cougar back in 2005.  I learned from that car that all 428 blocks did not necessarily get stamped on the back of the block.  But could be!

What I want to learn is how the panel dates can match or might not.

[TLea]

Regarding tilt away all 68 Shelbys built after 12/1/67 had it and would therefore have the hole. Never could be eliminated because it was problematic. Also just to be clear no one is forcing integrity because of less than perfect workmanship. Integrity only comes in to play with shenanigans which several have posted there are some things that raise an eyebrow. Not an accusation just worthy of investigating   Curious who you contacted on forum for inspection? I never got a call. I might know a little about 68s

[J_Speegle]

Let me attempt to respond - sure it will not be perfect

I'm trying to learn, like what happened with the Tilt-Away wheel concern.  I love that kind of thing!

I had a high level 428 CJ Cougar back in 2005.  I learned from that car that all 428 blocks did not necessarily get stamped on the back of the block.  But could be!

Please consider that its easy to lump all 428CJ installed at about 6 different plants in the same lump. Details like where the VIN was stamped with be a plant specific one so one would not want to compare a Dearborn built Cougar to what was the practice at NJ or another year. Or the other way around

What I want to learn is how the panel dates can match or might not.

In general, for this sort of things, people are focusing on panels that make up the uni-body. The panels that make up that body arrived at the car assembly plants not as ones and twos but in greater numbers with dates stamped one the vast majority of them

Since no supplying plant wanted allot of extra inventory sitting around the parts were stamped, boxed, crated, palletized and so on into groups and roll out on to rail cars that delivered them to the car assembly plant.  Panels were made based on need - example since both coupes and fastbacks most years were made in greater numbers than say, passenger side fastback trunk lid support panels.

On the line as a crate, stack ..... of panels were used up and as the last stack got used up the next stack was moved into its place to build the next body.

So what we get for the next 50-200 (just an example) of like cars is panels all dated with the same date code or off by a day. Other panels - other dates. 

These date groups help form a pattern that can be documented and compared.

Sometimes the worker placing the date ingot in the stamping mold got it wrong (up side down, incorrect pattern or impossible date) but even those show up as a micro pattern in production and is trackable based on my data. In my training you look at the total picture of all date collected and which panels they were found on to see if any pattern emerges and what that pattern may suggest or document.

Will say that just about every cars seems to have one "odd" duck panel date that makes you scratch your head but sometimes this turns out later to be indicative  of something else like a new micro pattern.

Hope that was understandable. Surely its not perfect but hope it helps explain based on my studies and understanding from Ford documents, plant managers and workers.

As far as asking and getting help sorry you didn't get the response you were looking for when you built the car or after. Often many of the people that could help own shops and don't have time to assist as much as they would like. There are a handful of others that hopefully would as it appears you needed some additional help during the assembly of the car to address things and or after to correct things. Not sure if you were looking for in person help the virus has kept many close to home by their choosing. It surely complicated things like travel and other related things related to personal health and those around them.

[Coralsnake]

Since we seem to have wrestled this thread back on track...

Checking sheetmetal date codes on a KR is pretty much a waste of time, considering about 95% of Mustangs pre-date the KR build dates.

Definitely not something that should be tried by someone without an extensive 1968 Shelby database.

[CharlesTurner]

The absence/presence of date codes is probably more of what is in play here... not necessarily how they line up the the Ford production date of the car.

[J_Speegle]

The absence/presence of date codes is probably more of what is in play here... not necessarily how they line up the the Ford production date of the car.

Of course the subject of panel dating would go hand in hand when looking at a car with panel attachment details

[J_Speegle]

Checking sheetmetal date codes on a KR is pretty much a waste of time, considering about 95% of Mustangs pre-date the KR build dates.

Unless it turns up dates on one or more panels that would not be expected.

Of course the subject of panel dating would go hand in hand when looking at a car with panel attachment details. As well as panel features that may have changed over a period of time depending on what year and make you were looking at. Same basic idea behind other panel details that one would not expect to find on a car from the KR period of production

[Scott_Ales]

I just wanted to take a moment to thank a few members for talking with me today.

It was very helpful and exciting to learn about the apron number being present on the Passenger side too!   And yes, the last 4 digits were peaking out from the front fender.  They match the car's number and the photo from the driver's side taken at restoration. 

Nice to meet you folks.  😊

[whiteykr]

Scott,
You have some of the best 68 Shelby  people on here to consult with. I also offer my assistance if you need it.
Brad

[Scott_Ales]

Scott,
You have some of the best 68 Shelby  people on here to consult with. I also offer my assistance if you need it.
Brad

I couldn't agree more.  Having talked with several of them yesterday! 

Thanks Brad

[69mach351w]

Okay ladies and gentlemen, before you start torturing me...
Please understand that my first car was a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 bought in 1977 for $3,200.  351 C, 4 spd, AC, ram air, green with black sport int.  Then a 1975 Euro Pantera in 1983 for $16k, and then a 1978 F150 short box 4x4 for 1984.  So I'm a Ford guy all the way. 

I spent over 3 months preparing for this BaT offering.  I contacted two people in your direct community to fully understand what this car was.  Even paid one to come look at the car.  I won't name them, they know who they are.  One actually told me they knew the history but never got back to me what they knew.  I finally gave up.  Did the best I could with what I could find alone. 

I stated early in the commentary this was an OVER restored car.  You folks use the term "Concours" where I believe you would be better served saying "Judged".  The level of finishes on this car are absolutely WAY past factory.  I have a close friend from Iowa who has an original 1969 Mustang Mach 1 his father bought new.  I know what they should look like. 

The bizarre reality in reading this thread is the complete disregard for resto-mod Shelby cars that bring $300k and more.  Do you see that originality desire is an experience for some not all?  If you want a documented original car, then buy it.  If you want a different ownership experience and find those buying opportunities are fewer, you have to pay more.  I'm certain we all agree different people desire different things and experiences.  The person that bought this car had a black/black KR on his bucket list for a very long time.  Are you really going to disparage his acquisition because it doesn't fit your desires?  Just because he isn't interested in judging?

Why don't you folks spend some energy offering an objective vetting process for those like myself who would be happy to pay for it before offering a car?  Instead of armchair complaining how the rest of the world is wrong.  Or worse, accusing me of shill bidding.  My passionate car wife of 40 years and I found that incredibly offensive and distasteful.   Especially coming from Ford people.  We've been nothing but champions for the brand these past 40+ years.

Absolutely very well said ++1