Can this be explained to me?

[Side-Oilers]

Bob, I agree. And that is another of many things that irks me about auction houses.   

To me, when the "House" falsely raises the bid price of an item to push the selling price higher, that's fraud.   

How's that okay/legal?

Richard, can you help here? 

[deathsled]

Hi Van,

I agree with Bob.  And I am unaware of any statute that prevents this from happening.  I would say that caveat emptor applies and the buyer sets their own price in their own mind regardless of any shill bidding.  There has to be a measure of buyer common sense (and due diligence) as to what a thing is worth.  Now if the car is a lemon, and/or misrepresented to be a thing that it is not, then some liability can attach to the seller and perhaps the auction house that is complicit. 

[Bob Gaines]

Market value can be established typically by how much something sells for and not what it bids up to. That is because it is too easy to falsely bid a item up to give a appearance of value. Auction houses can legally (some more then others  ) shill bid a reserve auction up to what they think the market value is. Their rational is to protect the value of the car for the seller because a buyer was not in the house to bid on that particular day.

Just to be clear it is legal for a auction house to shill bid up to the reserve on a reserve auction. It is not legal for the auction house to shill bid up a no reserve auction although no doubt it happens.

[Side-Oilers]

So, my question:  Why is fraud not fraud?  Just because it is allowed by some of those people/organizations committing the fraud? 

How about all the unsuspecting/trusting for-real bidders?  Me thinks they'd have a different viewpoint.

Definition of shill:
noun
An accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
"I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club"

Below is from Wikipedia...source of all knowledge  :  but is pretty accurate in this case, IMO.

People who drive prices in favor of the auctioneer with fake bids in an auction are called shills or potted plants and seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants.[8][9] Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller does not lose money if the item does not sell, paying only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts can bid on their own items. One detailed example of this has been documented in online auto auctions.[8] The online auction site eBay forbids shilling; its rules do not allow friends or employees of a person selling an item to bid on the item,[10] even though eBay has no means to detect if a bidder is related to a seller or is in fact the seller.[11]

In his book Fake: Forgery, Lies, & eBay, Kenneth Walton describes how he and his cohorts placed shill bids on hundreds of eBay auctions over the course of a year. Walton and his associates were charged and convicted of fraud by the United States Attorney for their eBay shill bidding.[12]

With the proliferation of live online auctions in recent years, shill bidding has become commonplace.[citation needed] Some websites allow shill bidding by participating auctioneers. These auctioneers are able to see bids placed in real time and can then place counter bids to increase the amount. One Proxibid auctioneers' website states, "At the request of the auction company, this auction permits bids to be placed by the seller or on the seller's behalf, even if such bids are placed solely for the purpose of increasing the bid."[13]

[427hunter]

Since some of our friends appear very confused about reserve auctions, I will try and explain.

Let say a person wants to sell an item.

They determine how much money they want in order to part with it.

If the predetermined amount is not reached the item does not sell.

The item is then relisted.

This may to be hard to understand but sometimes it takes time to sell something.

Exactly, great way to determine market value on ebay. Maybe not BJ or Mec, because of the hype.

I supect you do not have a clear understanding of markets based on your statment,  this was an advertisement with a reserve auction to attract buyers. Just because the bid ended a 66k does not mean thats the value of the car.  Expensive items require lots of advertisement to attract buyers sometimes, either you are confused or a troll.

[1175]

3 pages of drivel over an item that didn't get bid close to reserve.

Sorry, but I'm over it.

Jon

[shelbymann1970]

In 2009 I listed both my 73 Mustang vert and 68 Shelby on Ebay with BIN. I had to sell one. It was funny seeing the very lowball offers from dealers. My 73(which sold the 3rd time on within 2 hours for my BIN price of 16K) I had a dealer first offer me 8K then 9K then 10K. I told him to "go away". They were not BIN "or make offer".  Ditto for my 68. Bottom feeders. Kept my 68 and enjoyed it another 4 years until I bought my 69 SCJ Mach1. 68 Shelby had to go(room for 2 classics only). 4 times on Ebay and selling it the 4th time after auction. Again BIN and had an offer in my wheelhouse so I accepted. Ebay pissed me off on their "rules" so I effectively sold it under a brand new account in my wife's name with zero feedback(referred watchers to prior auctions under my regular Ebay handle). Car went to France.
On my 73 they pulled my first auction with a few hours left and the car was close to the reserve(went BIN after that) because of "rules violation". Seems someone complained that I used 71 and 72 in my ad(common practice for 71-3 owners). I called on the phone to ask why the auction was pulled and a live person told me that. I then proceeded to list about a dozen other auctioned doing the SAME thing that were live. None were ever pulled. I am not a fan of Ebay and will never sell another car on there with BaT around now. Heck I hardly ever go there anymore except my saved searches(a few) for certain parts. I doubt I'll sell parts anymore on Ebay either with their total cost including PayPal for sold items. I'll try FB first.  Gary

[67 GT350]

Since some of our friends appear very confused about reserve auctions, I will try and explain.

Let say a person wants to sell an item.

They determine how much money they want in order to part with it.

If the predetermined amount is not reached the item does not sell.

The item is then relisted.

This may to be hard to understand but sometimes it takes time to sell something.

Exactly, great way to determine market value on ebay. Maybe not BJ or Mec, because of the hype.

I supect you do not have a clear understanding of markets based on your statment,  this was an advertisement with a reserve auction to attract buyers. Just because the bid ended a 66k does not mean thats the value of the car.  Expensive items require lots of advertisement to attract buyers sometimes, either you are confused or a troll.

Then why not put the price that would make one happy, and add the best offer, this way one could either get their car sold, or see if through a best offer, they are close to their price?
Like this:
buy it now: 450K or best offer
Offers come in at 66K, 76K 126K 146K
Then one counters at 150K and the potential buyer says, OK sold @ 150K

[67 GT350]

In 2009 I listed both my 73 Mustang vert and 68 Shelby on Ebay with BIN. I had to sell one. It was funny seeing the very lowball offers from dealers. My 73(which sold the 3rd time on within 2 hours for my BIN price of 16K) I had a dealer first offer me 8K then 9K then 10K. I told him to "go away". They were not BIN "or make offer".  Ditto for my 68. Bottom feeders. Kept my 68 and enjoyed it another 4 years until I bought my 69 SCJ Mach1. 68 Shelby had to go(room for 2 classics only). 4 times on Ebay and selling it the 4th time after auction. Again BIN and had an offer in my wheelhouse so I accepted. Ebay pissed me off on their "rules" so I effectively sold it under a brand new account in my wife's name with zero feedback(referred watchers to prior auctions under my regular Ebay handle). Car went to France.
On my 73 they pulled my first auction with a few hours left and the car was close to the reserve(went BIN after that) because of "rules violation". Seems someone complained that I used 71 and 72 in my ad(common practice for 71-3 owners). I called on the phone to ask why the auction was pulled and a live person told me that. I then proceeded to list about a dozen other auctioned doing the SAME thing that were live. None were ever pulled. I am not a fan of Ebay and will never sell another car on there with BaT around now. Heck I hardly ever go there anymore except my saved searches(a few) for certain parts. I doubt I'll sell parts anymore on Ebay either with their total cost including PayPal for sold items. I'll try FB first.  Gary

I had a 67 Fastback GT K Code in beautiful condition, I had it priced at 65K with offers, I was getting offers like 28K,30K,32K, etc some would not even make an offer until I found the VIN on the block, which I did. A guy who hounded me to do that, ended up buying it for my asking price. WOW, the low ballers just crack me up.