428CJ Starter, FE hot start real or?

[Craner]

GT500KR Starter, should I rebuild it or....? To prevent hot starting potential problem.

This car had the starter replaced under warranty at Gotham Ford @ 2836 miles. From what I can determine by reading the shop order, it was related to heated starting. The starter was replaced with PN C8AZ 11002 A. ($27.18)

The case stamping and front nose casting engineering numbers) don't seem right, but this may have been replaced again at some point. ( 15k mile on odometer)

If this car has good cabling, battery, starter solenoid and grounding, can I use an original starter without having starter " failure" due to heat?

I've included photos of the starter markings for any comments..

[PrettyMuchAShelbyGuy]

I had a horrible hot start problem on a 428 cobra jet back in the day, even with good strong battery cables and good grounding. I think the core issue is more around the rebuilt starters just don't have the torque that a new manufacture starter would. You might also want to check the cooling system to make sure it's cooling as good as it can and not running hot.

[shelbydoug]

First off, you are presuming that the starter was replaced due to starter failure. It is more likely that it was just how the service department reacted to a hard start complaint.

Welcome to the world of big block Mustangs.


There are several things going on with hot re-starts. It isn't necessarily that the car is over heating. It probably wasn't.

On a stock BB, you get heat soak of the carb within a half a minute or so of shutting down and often vapor lock in the fuel line.

The original carb gaskets are not heat isolating parts.

SOMETIMES the fuel will BOIL out of the bowls and SPILL INTO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD and flood the engine out.

In addition, the original battery cables and starter cable are too small a gauge.


You need to deal with those issues first.


Some have found using an aftermarket type of starter necessary. I use them on all three of my cars. It isn't just the BB's that can have issues but I'd recommend that you go to at least a 0 gauge cable. A 00 is what I use as well as dealing with isolating the carb(s) and fuel lines. Success so far.

ACCELL makes a large type starter that looks just like the original Ford. You can camouflage it to look like the Ford. That one I have in my Pantera. Without that starter, the car can be temperamental on a hot restart depending on the circumstances.



My GT500 and GT350 both have Tilton race starters in them. Those happen to be re-packaged Toyota starters. They are both fantastic and have never failed.

If you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.



My '67 GT500 AND '68 GT350, both benefited from replacing the original fuel log with a Delrin fuel log. That really helps. You could feel the original fuel log very hot to the touch on hot engine. Too hot to touch really.

Delrin never gets hot or cold. It does not absorb or loose heat calories. The fuel log will not be hot to the touch on a hot engine. So the fuel in it won't be heated either.

There is also a Delrin fuel pump gasket that helps isolate the mechanical fuel pump from the engine block.



All three needed the heavy gauge cables. The GT350 is a 347 and was really having hot restart issues. It has 2-4's on a C60A "trans-am" intake so it got a Delrin fuel log also.


I should mention that drag racers often use carb heat isolaters made of PLYWOOD.  Mine are just plain ole' black Delrin.


So here's the thing. You can be original or you can eliminate the problems. You can't have both simultaneously.

[TLea]

First of all that is not an original cobra jet starter. Cobra jet starter should have a C8 AF. Second of all that's just for a point of authenticity having the right starter. The problem with the starters is the people that rebuild them don't really know what they're doing. The guy I use can make a high powered starter out of any case it's all about the windings and setting it up and building it correctly. We've probably got 40 or 50 big block rebuilds and I've never had an issue

[Bob Gaines]

First of all that is not an original cobra jet starter. Cobra jet starter should have a C8 AF. Second of all that's just for a point of authenticity having the right starter. The problem with the starters is the people that rebuild them don't really know what they're doing. The guy I use can make a high powered starter out of any case it's all about the windings and setting it up and building it correctly. We've probably got 40 or 50 big block rebuilds and I've never had an issue

+1 what he said.  High torque windings are what I get my rebuilder to use. They cost more but have benefits . Also your timing has to be right to allow the engine to spin easier. A over bored engine that gets hot will also complicate things. Some rebuilt engines are built tight which buts a strain on a hot starter. If you are running headers you can try to heat wrap the starter but if you already gone down the day 2 road just get one of the various make gear reduced starters and be done with it. If you have gone headers the authenticity of the original starter will not make a difference one way or the other.

[Tired Sheep]

-2

If you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.

"Concours" cars should not have blue starters

[FL SAAC]

a vote  for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress

[shelbydoug]

a vote  for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress

I understand he is running for office in Florida?

[shelbydoug]

-2

If you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.

"Concours" cars should not have blue starters

I can't speak of 428CJ's but my 350 was Ford blue with yellow ink stamps. Why would '68 428's be finished differently?

[FL SAAC]

a vote  for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress

I understand he is running for office in Florida?

DELRIN can't stand a chance against the best Governor in the universe DESANTIS  !

[rhjanes]

Mr. Gaines has great advice.  My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart.  Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks.  I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished.  Check the timing, and then check it again.  Then move on to other possibilities.   

[ctann]

Mr. Gaines has great advice.  My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart.  Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks.  I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished.  Check the timing, and then check it again.  Then move on to other possibilities.   

After quite some discussions about "correct" versus "best" initial timing - interested what your setting was?

[Bob Gaines]

-2

If you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.

"Concours" cars should not have blue starters

I can't speak of 428CJ's but my 350 was Ford blue with yellow ink stamps. Why would '68 428's be finished differently?

65-70 Shelby GT350's (regular Mustangs too) all had the typical painted black starters from the factory. The ink stamps on the 65-67 starters were typically white. Later cars like 68 typically had metal stamped ID numbers and letters. I am not disputing that you may have found a blue starter on your car but it was most likely replaced.  I knew a owner that painted everything under the hood of the many Mustangs and Shelby's he owned Ford engine light blue for example. He even painted his house that color. 

[shelbydoug]

When one says ALL, it precludes the possibility of anything else.  I got my '68 on April 4, 1971. 11am.

Nothing on the engine had been touched.

The first time it was at a Shelby Convention I was told it wasn't a real Shelby because it had chrome reflectors sitting in flush in the quarter panels and 68's didn't come that way.

So I am used to doubters.


I always wanted to see -01106 and -01108, the other two Hertz cars in the group to compare "irregularities".

You can understand my apprehension in associating with Concours Judges I'm sure. It isn't a pretty sight. So far Kopec has never had to call for police assistance but there is always a first time.


As far as Desantis being the best Governor in the Universe, that doesn't say much for the Universe now does it? The Aliens aren't going to be happy with impugning the Universe. 

I wouldn't make public statements like that but then again I wouldn't perform the Cranberries "Zombie" either. Too many gun happy people out there.

[rhjanes]

Mr. Gaines has great advice.  My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart.  Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks.  I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished.  Check the timing, and then check it again.  Then move on to other possibilities.   

After quite some discussions about "correct" versus "best" initial timing - interested what your setting was?

Honestly, it's been set for some 15 years and I don't remember.  IIRC, it's about 2 degrees off from what the shop manual says.  I run 93 octane with no alcohol in it.  I don't run it hard at all, but no pings or detonation and it cranks pretty easy, even after a 30 minute run in 90 degree Texas weather. 
All the stuff about setting using vacuum and such, didn't work for my car.
And, every car is different!  Depends on the Cam, mechanical and vacuum advance on the distributor (mine was rebuilt and set by Tim, also some 20+ years ago).