Category for Pantera question? Regarding Holman Moody fixes when first imported

[HistoryBuff]

Just read Holman & Moody by Cotter and Pierce. They say Holman & Moody took in the first Panteras and did a lot of chassis work for Ford. I was aware that Bill Stroppe in Long Beach was doing fixes before the cars could get to dealers but do these authors mean to sat that Panteras were also sent to Charlotte for the fixes there? Also i read elsewhere it was Holman, Moody Stroppe since 1965. I know Bill Stroppe lost control of his business for awhile couldn't even open a new business with his name?

[shelbydoug]

First I heard of it. Perhaps poor journalism?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

As you know Stroppe was Ford's SoCal media car storage/detail place. He also had contracts to do things like EPA mileage loops and handle some oddball prep/warranty things for Ford. I remember when Taurus was car of the year. Motor Trend was testing a handbuilt prototype at Riverside. Ron Grable spun it going into 9 and broomed the side. The car was back the next morning with new door skin, rear 1/4 and perfectly matching paint. I don't know if the parts were flown in or if Ford pre positioned parts expecting the worst.
They might have done some test work or dealer prep on the Pantera but they really weren't an engineering/development company for Ford by that time. Ford was vested in Holman & Moody for that type work. I don't know if KarKraft did any before they closed in 1970. Roush didn't start doing outside development work for Ford (and others) until 76.
Maybe if ALL the Panteras needed the transaxles replaced they were sent from the port to H&M or Stroppe and then onto the dealers.
We knew the ZF would not hold up to the twin turbo Cammer we put in the Pantera Mega Buck so we used the Hewland that came out of Shelby's McLaren CanAm car.
I found this about ZF program - lots of problems. I didn't know parts for them were made in Israel. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/Technical/ZF%20Transaxle%20Requirements.pdf

[shelbydoug]

Cobra program? $353.83 cost? 366-8V? Automatic trans-axle? Israeli manufacture? Mangusta a Ford product?

Interesting! Very, very interesting!

I should have realized Gedes was involved? I would have loved to have had his job.  Talk about the "inner circle". Wow!

[Bob Gaines]

Was the Mangusta ZF upside down (matter of perspective) like the GT40 ?

[honker]

Bob, here's a comment on the Pantera/Mangusta ZF, this is from a piece on the Mangusta written by "Mr. Wyss" in 2010.

Interesting to read the comments on the car and "opinion" on the article and "writer" in the link !

https://velocetoday.com/detomaso-mangusta/

Mike

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Was the Mangusta ZF upside down (matter of perspective) like the GT40 ?

NO - the Pantera one was upside down. On the Goose the input shaft is below the axle centerline (like a regular car rear end). On the Pantera it's above. They flipped it to move the engine up for ground clearance. If you read the linked paper you'll see they had to do additional development work for the oiling to work in the upside down transaxle.

[shelbydoug]

The ZF in the Mangusta and the Pantera are mounted opposite. If the Mangusta ZF is up, then the Pantera version is upside down.

The above attached engineering report describes the Pantera ZF as being mounted upside down and requiring internal oiling modifications to compensate for that.



One of the issues with the Mangusta was that the bellhouse was so close to the ground that even in the US any manhole cover was a road hazard and there were a number of cases where a good portion of the bell had been torn away by contact with "road obstructions".

That was corrected in the Pantera but it still has some clearance issues particularly in the front under the radiator support.



The US bound Panteras had a 1" spacer installed in the shock/spring assembly that raised the car approximately 1". It was thought that it was to comply with the minimum headlight height requirements in the US, but really if you remove the 1" spacers (as I have) the lower radiator support height issue becomes apparent.

The Pantera suspension is very similar to a coil spring Cobra chassis with "coil overs", and unequal a-arms front and back.

To illustrate the issue, IF I make a fist and hold it vertically, I cannot slip it under the support. If I hold it flat, it will clear. That's low and you need to learn to look down the road surfaces for obvious protrusions and what's worse, some of the "old" gas stations have an entrance ramp that is too steep for the car.

So you say, so you scrape up the paint a little? Wrong Bunkie. You tear the sheetmetal off, bend the radiator support and crack the radiator. 'nough said?



I'm not surprised that Ford wanted out but there was a little venom expressed on their part. At the end of US Pantera production, Ford bought Vignale. They actually were the ones who built the Panteras.

So what you say? They immediately shut them down and never reopened it. That's nasty but I suspect payback for something? Maybe to the labor union? At the time Mafia interference stories in businesses were common in Italy AND Italy had the largest Communist Party in the "West", so you go and speculate?

It may not have been Detomaso that they had enough of, maybe just Italy?



I just skimmed through the article but it is my understanding that Ford delivered the engines for both the Mangusta and the Pantera with the explicit requirement that Detomaso wasn't even allowed to take the valve covers off without loosing warranty coverage of the engine from Ford.

Quite a set of handcuffs considering there is an easy 150 horsepower to be gained with that engine at very little risk.

So to me it appears that the author of that article took considerable liberties and somewhat of a cheap shot in accusing Detomaso of being cheap by installing the engines as received from Ford.

No one ever accused automotive journalists necessarily of being accurate?



I'm not an expert on the Mangusta but it has been pretty much documented that there was only one built with the 289. The first one. All others were 4speed 302 J codes which means they had the provisions for air injectors in the heads exhaust ports.

Automatic transmissioned J codes did not have air injector ports. They would have had the wrong flywheel and Ford forbid any changes so those couldn't have been used instead. The Ford cast iron exhaust manifolds were not used. Detomaso had special tube headers made.

I do not believe that the Mangustas had air pumps but I may be wrong on that?



The Pantera benefited from a change in the Federal law that regulated vehicle emissions at the time.

The change simply said that imported vehicles with less then 5,000 annual units produced were exempt from requiring the air pump.

I didn't look at the date of that exemption but it is possible that the Mangusta was too early to benefit?


It was interesting to me to see the Mangusta as listed as a Ford product in the above engineering report.

It was always thought that Ford never accepted it as a Ford product and it was strictly a Detomaso? Just the engine was warranted by Ford with their caveats.


It is said that the exemption to the US Emissions law came about by Mrs.Detomaso's lobbying. She is an American from New Jersey. 

[98SVT - was 06GT]

I'm not surprised that Ford wanted out but there was a little venon expressed on their part. At the end of US Pantera production, Ford bought Vignale. They actually were the ones who built the Panteras.

So what you say? They immediately shut them down and never reopened it. That's nasty but I suspect payback for something? Maybe to the labor union? At the time Mafia interference stories were notorious in Italy AND Italy had the largest Communist Party in the "West", so you go and speculate?

Maybe there was some additional projects or money promised to Vignale that would not have to be met with the purchase.

The guy who had Mega Buck built bought a Countach from the factory and sent my friend to document/watch the build. When he got there the factory was open sporatically with labor/mafia problems. He paid for the car left the factory with all the paperwork MSO, receipts, manuals, etc. The factory shut down and the car never arrived but he did find it for sale about a year later. The guy selling it also bought it from the factory and got all the paperwork. He sued for the car but lost and was told he'd have to pursue his case in the Italian courts as that is where the fraud occurred - then the "owner" had the gall to ask if he could have the build photos.

[shelbydoug]

I'm not surprised that Ford wanted out but there was a little venon expressed on their part. At the end of US Pantera production, Ford bought Vignale. They actually were the ones who built the Panteras.

So what you say? They immediately shut them down and never reopened it. That's nasty but I suspect payback for something? Maybe to the labor union? At the time Mafia interference stories were notorious in Italy AND Italy had the largest Communist Party in the "West", so you go and speculate?

Maybe there was some additional projects or money promised to Vignale that would not have to be met with the purchase.

The guy who had Mega Buck built bought a Countach from the factory and sent my friend to document/watch the build. When he got there the factory was open sporatically with labor/mafia problems. He paid for the car left the factory with all the paperwork MSO, receipts, manuals, etc. The factory shut down and the car never arrived but he did find it for sale about a year later. The guy selling it also bought it from the factory and got all the paperwork. He sued for the car but lost and was told he'd have to pursue his case in the Italian courts as that is where the fraud occurred - then the "owner" had the gall to ask if he could have the build photos.

To my knowledge and memory no one in the press ever commented on the Vignale closure, just that it was shut down?

Alejandro was from R hen tina. Mrs.Detomaso was from a "good family" in New Jersey.

Perhaps she is the one that actually "ran" the business?

I can't remember his name at the moment, so I apologize to him for that, but one of the Detomaso's is on the Pantera Forum and has helped current owners get documentation on their cars.

He said he is American born but worked at Detomaso in Italy over the summers. Seems a really nice guy.

He might answer the Vignale question privately but I doubt publicly. It doesn't really matter any more, it's just a point of interest from the past.

His name starts with a W. It's not William. It's something like Willard? I can see his face but the name...?

[HistoryBuff]

On the Mangustas ordered by British Motor Car Distributors in SF (after Ford passed on it) there is a shiny label in the front luggage compartment that states that this car was granted I think 17 exemptions from US law. Might have been because under 500 were made. But knowing the background of Mrs. DeTomaso I think it's more political clout. Her family , after watching her and Alejandro struggle the first few years (since 1959) finally kicked in with the heavy bread in 1965 when the DeTomasos had the chance to buy Ghia and Vignale. Mrs. DeTomaso probably just called her old man, who founded Monmouth Park race track and said "Can you call Senator so-and-so" and the car magically was granted entry. (I would ask that Senator but he got killed in a plane crash as did her brother while flying around the US signing up dealers for the Mangusta) Mrs. DeTomaso, in her mid-80s. is back in racing, but horse racing (where she started) and I like to think that one of the horses I am involved with (in a breeding operation) might someday be pitted against her hot shot Irish War Cry if we ever come up with a Derby contender...

I won't try to sell you a horse but if you need more DeTomaso background. got  a book (write malibucarart@gmail.com)

[shelbydoug]

Trying to sell me your book? Wow. What a surprise?

New Jersey's two Senators in that time frame were: Clifford Case (R) '55-79. Harrison Williams (D) 59-82.

I'd bet it was the (R)? I'd investigate further but I doubt that their Bio's mention their brothers?

Big donators have clout. 


It is an interesting side story that can't happen these days but my point was that it was interesting to read this "internal Ford document" contradicting the Mangusta relationship with Ford as we now think that we know it?

Indiana Jones would be pleased.