engine oil

[shelbymann1970]

While I have seen good topics on this on the old forum a search revealed nothing on the new one. Can we discuss the best oils to use in our old engines driven not much? I did a search and finding out actual oils compared to articles telling you to use Zinc is proving to be futile for my limited time. So what are people using?  Any sites comparing the protection (zinc/ ZDDP) of various oils geared towards old cars or racers? Thanks. Gary

[67_1183]

While I have seen good topics on this on the old forum a search revealed nothing on the new one. Can we discuss the best oils to use in our old engines driven not much? I did a search and finding out actual oils compared to articles telling you to use Zinc is proving to be futile for my limited time. So what are people using?  Any sites comparing the protection (zinc/ ZDDP) of various oils geared towards old cars or racers? Thanks. Gary

Was discussed here.

http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=705.45

[gt350hr]

   OK Gary ,
       I'll stir up the hornet's nest . Everybody wants to run zinc loaded oils to keep their flat tappet ( lifter face) cams from going "flat". "IMHO" , beyond that , there is NO reason to have ''high level" zinc oil.
      Starting and the basic knowledge level, cams that use flat face lifters ( hydraulic or solid internals) have "taper" ground into the lobe shape to promote lifter rotation , along with a specific , shallow radius on the actual lifter face to work with the lobe taper. Both the cam and the lifter are hardened to manufacturer specifications for long term wear resistance. New camshafts have a phosphate ( break in) coating applied to them . "Some" but not all lifters can have a similar face coating as well. If a camshaft OR lifter doesn't have the proper shape ground into it OR heat treatment, it will FAIL regardless of how much zinc is in the oil. Camshaft manufacturers typically include , moly paste , extreme pressure grease . or other "camshaft assembly lubes" in their kits for break in purposes. Most of the preceding is common knowledge. "most" camshaft failures occur in the initial start up and or first 50-100 miles or the break in time. Performance camshaft manufactures have ( recently) been increasing the amount of lobe taper to enhance lifter rotation in case a lower zinc content oil is used. It seems to be working as break in failures are down. Once beyond that camshafts have been known to last over 100,000 miles. Long term camshaft failure is "most" often traceable to reduced oil "splash" as oil pressure drops with larger bearing clearances. The only other "mechanical"  condition that can "flatten" a lobe is excessive valve spring pressure , "coil bind" or another form of valve train bind.
        Once "broken in", large amounts of zinc should not be "necessary" as lifter rotation has already been established. A lower zinc ( commonly available) oil should be fine. Oil viscosity IS directly related to bearing clearances and older engines need higher viscosity than "modern" production engines. Multi viscosity oils are recommended in colder climates or extreme racing conditions.
      Synthetics are great in modern engines and not a bad thing in flat tappet engines that have past the "break in " period.  Synthetics reduce friction and friction "flattens" flat lifter camshafts.

    IMHO ( again) the only way for you to REALLY know if an oil is doing a good job is to "regularly" look at the internals of your engine by taking it apart for inspection. Beyond that I don't know how anyone can boast about how good "their" brand of oil is doing for them. Since most guys don't , pick an oil and quality filter. Run it until the oil loses "transparency" ( mileage and use will cause a time variation). In some cases 3,000 is wasting "good" oil  and in others it's "just right".

          OK start shooting the flaming arrows at me now!
        Randy

[sfm5]

    Since most guys don't , pick an oil and quality filter. Run it until the oil loses "transparency" ( mileage and use will cause a time variation). In some cases 3,000 is wasting "good" oil  and in others it's "just right".

          OK start shooting the flaming arrows at me now!
        Randy

Well that all sounds sensible - no flames from here! I always thought there also a time factor. Some of these cars are stored for longer periods and it may take 5 years or longer to rack up 3000 miles. How long can oil sit in the engine before you should change it regardless of mileage?

[OldGuy]

   OK Gary ,
       I'll stir up the hornet's nest . Everybody wants to run zinc loaded oils to keep their flat tappet ( lifter face) cams from going "flat". "IMHO" , beyond that , there is NO reason to have ''high level" zinc oil.
      Starting and the basic knowledge level, cams that use flat face lifters ( hydraulic or solid internals) have "taper" ground into the lobe shape to promote lifter rotation , along with a specific , shallow radius on the actual lifter face to work with the lobe taper. Both the cam and the lifter are hardened to manufacturer specifications for long term wear resistance. New camshafts have a phosphate ( break in) coating applied to them . "Some" but not all lifters can have a similar face coating as well. If a camshaft OR lifter doesn't have the proper shape ground into it OR heat treatment, it will FAIL regardless of how much zinc is in the oil. Camshaft manufacturers typically include , moly paste , extreme pressure grease . or other "camshaft assembly lubes" in their kits for break in purposes. Most of the preceding is common knowledge. "most" camshaft failures occur in the initial start up and or first 50-100 miles or the break in time. Performance camshaft manufactures have ( recently) been increasing the amount of lobe taper to enhance lifter rotation in case a lower zinc content oil is used. It seems to be working as break in failures are down. Once beyond that camshafts have been known to last over 100,000 miles. Long term camshaft failure is "most" often traceable to reduced oil "splash" as oil pressure drops with larger bearing clearances. The only other "mechanical"  condition that can "flatten" a lobe is excessive valve spring pressure , "coil bind" or another form of valve train bind.
        Once "broken in", large amounts of zinc should not be "necessary" as lifter rotation has already been established. A lower zinc ( commonly available) oil should be fine. Oil viscosity IS directly related to bearing clearances and older engines need higher viscosity than "modern" production engines. Multi viscosity oils are recommended in colder climates or extreme racing conditions.
      Synthetics are great in modern engines and not a bad thing in flat tappet engines that have past the "break in " period.  Synthetics reduce friction and friction "flattens" flat lifter camshafts.

    IMHO ( again) the only way for you to REALLY know if an oil is doing a good job is to "regularly" look at the internals of your engine by taking it apart for inspection. Beyond that I don't know how anyone can boast about how good "their" brand of oil is doing for them. Since most guys don't , pick an oil and quality filter. Run it until the oil loses "transparency" ( mileage and use will cause a time variation). In some cases 3,000 is wasting "good" oil  and in others it's "just right".

          OK start shooting the flaming arrows at me now!
        Randy

+1 VERY well said. No flaming arrows here.

[mark p]

That's good info Randy, thanks for the explanations and input.
FWIW, the lifters in my "driver" (occasionally quite spirited) 1987-era 302 looked very good when we inspected them recently. Engine has about 18k miles on it. I was unaware of the whole ZDDP issue until about 10 years ago, thus about 15 years of running that engine with plain-jane [name-brand] dino and synthetic oils... seems to illustrate your opinion.

[gt350hr]

    Since most guys don't , pick an oil and quality filter. Run it until the oil loses "transparency" ( mileage and use will cause a time variation). In some cases 3,000 is wasting "good" oil  and in others it's "just right".

          OK start shooting the flaming arrows at me now!
        Randy

Well that all sounds sensible - no flames from here! I always thought there also a time factor. Some of these cars are stored for longer periods and it may take 5 years or longer to rack up 3000 miles. How long can oil sit in the engine before you should change it regardless of mileage?

      I have heard some real stories. Oil in the original container should be good for many years. If the "stored" vehicle is started once a month or so , I see no reason why the oil won't last 5 years. My own drag race engine is coming up on 5 years since I changed the oil and the "mileage" is around 100 at this time. The oil in that engine is 30 year old Kendall GT1 that came in cans , not plastic bottles!  Engine oil isn't like brake fluid where it absorbs water so "I" don't see any issue with it setting for years. Some have said that oil "oxidizes" but IMHO that would come with high oil temps or dilution.
      Randy

[rhjanes]

I was unaware of the whole ZDDP issue until about 10 years ago, thus about 15 years of running that engine with plain-jane [name-brand] dino and synthetic oils... seems to illustrate your opinion.

Zinc was reduced in 2004.  So it wasn't an issue until after that.

https://noln.net/2015/09/30/zddp-qa/

[mark p]

Zinc was reduced in 2004.  So it wasn't an issue until after that.

https://noln.net/2015/09/30/zddp-qa/

Thanks, I had wondered about that a time or two with all these discussions 

[1967 eight barrel]

As for my 427: I am running a flat tappet cam and about .002-.0025 main and rod clearances. The valve springs are also have much more tension than the OE spring per cam manufacturer specification. I ran Kendall for years and swear by it..  Brad Penn break-in oil is what I currently run ( change of ownership).
  I ran it in my turbo vehicles in the past as well. The link between lack of ZDDP and flat tappet cam wear is absolutely substantiated. 
As most of us don't put a lot of mileage on our vehicles, they have a propensity to wind up with moisture in the crankcase. So I change the oil every 2500 miles.
Call me anal, but vehicles running dual quads tend to run rich at idle to some extent and winds up thinning the viscosity of the oil.
Randy as usual covered it well. However, I am anal and there is NOTHING cheap about building/ replacing parts on an FE.
I will stick with a K&N 3001 and the Brad Penn.  It works!  ( Yes, the oil is green)
                                                                                                                      -Keith

[shelbymann1970]

    Since most guys don't , pick an oil and quality filter. Run it until the oil loses "transparency" ( mileage and use will cause a time variation). In some cases 3,000 is wasting "good" oil  and in others it's "just right".

          OK start shooting the flaming arrows at me now!
        Randy

Well that all sounds sensible - no flames from here! I always thought there also a time factor. Some of these cars are stored for longer periods and it may take 5 years or longer to rack up 3000 miles. How long can oil sit in the engine before you should change it regardless of mileage?

      I have heard some real stories. Oil in the original container should be good for many years. If the "stored" vehicle is started once a month or so , I see no reason why the oil won't last 5 years. My own drag race engine is coming up on 5 years since I changed the oil and the "mileage" is around 100 at this time. The oil in that engine is 30 year old Kendall GT1 that came in cans , not plastic bottles!  Engine oil isn't like brake fluid where it absorbs water so "I" don't see any issue with it setting for years. Some have said that oil "oxidizes" but IMHO that would come with high oil temps or dilution.
      Randy

Randy thanks so much. I will admit what you told me I never heard before. Yes, I miss topics from time to time and did a search for oil before posting here. My GT350 vert does not get a lot of miles on an oil change. I have changed oil that was "brand new" looking when drained and was in about 5 years. Thought I was wasting my $$$$. My engine is ORIGINAL with  105K kilometers on it.  Also I have "old" engine oil as I bought a BUNCH of it when a local chain had a clearance table with 90 percent off so I bought all their oil off of it. The age of it puts it in the pre zinc dropping range as it has an offer on the bottles that expired at the end of year of the changes. Still have some left. BTW the dip stick always is clear when checking. Gary

[gt350hr]

  Brad Penn has been purchased by DA Lubricants but is STILL the same formula and is still GREEN. Back when I first got some drag race recognition , I had a Valvoline oil deal and some help from Harvey Crane . I was having bearing issues and Harvey suggested I try Kendall GT1 to solve the issues ( which it did). I'll never forget him telling me to "sell the Valvoline and buy a good oil". I did just that. That was 50 years ago and I still use it in my race engines. The majority of my "insight or expertise" comes from long talks with a retired chemist/ chemical engineer (rip)from Conoco . He gave me the stuff  from the scientific side , not the salesman side and totally unbiased. He had tested virtually every brand of oil on the market to see "what it was made of". HE was the man that enlightened me about additives and keeping them "in suspension" , which ones were OK and which ones had NO PLACE in engine oils. ( teflon and graphite for example) He "taught' me for many years until his passing 15 years ago. There are LOTS of guys smarter than me , but I don't have oil related engine failures and have avoided MANY by using my common sense and learned information. EGO is far overshadowed by the reward that comes from helping others.
    Randy

[sfm5]

Thanks for the insights Randy - much appreciated! I have previously been "advised" to change the oil each year regardless of mileage because it "deteriorates" sitting in the engine/oil pan through some sort of chemical reaction (?), but when I asked about the cases of oil sitting in my garage the advice then becomes that oil does not deteriorate while in the plastic bottle. Hmmmm...always sounded more like urban legend than common sense or science.

I use Brad Penn which I buy by the case lot (due to limited availability up here) and every time I have changed the oil what comes out looks clear and almost unused, even after a few years. I guess common sense prevails!

[gt350hr]

   That is one of the myths that my late friend debunked.  Oil only has a chemical reaction if other "chemicals" ( like gasoline) contaminate it. He suggested  once a month ( or so)  start ups to keep the additives "mixed" well in the oil. Long term "storage" in an oil pan subject to outside air and humidity can suffer from what he called additive fallout. In other words some of the additives (like anti corrosion additives) can "settle out" and  allow rust to form on anything ferrous. occasional starting keeps the oil mixed and "sprayed over the internals. Unless subjected to 250+* temperatures , oil does not "oxidize" as some myths also claim. If you remember oil (except in bulk barrels) isn't in metal containers ( except for the old cardboard cans with treated end caps). Same reason applies. What we have to be careful of these days is the alcohol in gasoline which "pulls" water out of the air. Since "some" of the gasoline does make it into the oil pan there is a potential problem there.
    Beyond that I don't see anything to show that it "magically" changes.
   Randy

[1967 eight barrel]

Randy:
The alcohol is detrimental to just about anything it touches in our vehicles. It made a mess in my Holley float bowls. I never thought to contribute it to the ethanol, but it does make perfect sense. The additives not staying suspended also was something never brought up in the past. Once again, good information.
As for the Kendall; I had a turbo issue with it smoking at idle. I was using Castrol at the time ( Early 80's). It broke down and always seemed to get dirty very quickly.
When I changed to Kendall all the issues were taken care of. I was sold after that. So I guess I'm not crazy.  I currently use Mobil 1 in my Turbo car, as that is what the manufacturer pushes.
                                                                                    -Keith