1967 GT500 which engine would you put in and why?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Scott, why do I feel like we went back in time and are standing in the Super Stupid Shops parking lot.

Fixed it for ya

[427hunter]

Scott, why do I feel like we went back in time and are standing in the Super Stupid Shops parking lot.

Fixed it for ya

Exactly! Same Stuff I used to hear back then.

[Kent]

Ok maybe I take the 428 PI again, I think its maybe the best decision as I never would race it so hard as I could. Yes its unbelievable how much hp you can get out of these mustang engines. My black shelby clone with the 408 and Paxton did the 0-100 in 3.2 seconds on toyo´s and 100-200 in 6.6 sec. my 68 drag fastback is much faster with just a 438 sb that thing is awesome.

I go with the 428 as I think its the best option to have it reliable and not overpowered and maybe I built another clone with a Sideoiler who knows what will happen in the next years.

so here the question who has a 428PI engine for me with heads.

this is the drag car, and this is on no prep with really a soft start

https://youtu.be/8z9QP4jEUjE

[427heaven]

Thats the bumpiest roller coaster Drag strip I have ever seen... :' ( State side would not allow that at any sanctioned track. Looks like a good runner-

[shelbydoug]

The largest restriction you will have with building an FE is the timing on the camshafts.

In today's world you will find that on most US built v-8s, aftermarket camshafts will be with a 110 centerline and a built in 4 advance.

In order to use the capability of that timing, the exhaust system needs to be relatively nonrestrictive.



In ALL of the FORD FE heads, the exhaust ports on the heads ARE THE SAME.
They are restrictive. Many, but not all FE builders will recommend a cam profile with a centerline of around 113 degrees as a result.



Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.

Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.

At that point, all of a sudden 357's were making 800hp on the strip.

Exactly who's idea that was first doesn't really matter but Dyno Don Nicholson was the first one to be seen with it as I recall?


In my view, the bad FE exhaust port design is THE limiting factor in making big HP out of the engine.

Now there are a few aftermarket aluminum FE heads that I have seen that have improved the exhausts, but not to the extent that the Pro Stock Cleveland modification did.


Taking a somewhat educated guess as to what the bad FE ports do... you're missing out on something like 100 to 150hp sticking with them BUT there is no practical solution if you are running a Ford head, even a 'Cammer,  has the same restriction in casting design.



I'm running the CompCams solid lifter with .587 lift and 110 centers with very early Hooker Headers. That's about as unrestrictive as you can make the engine without attempting to re-invent the wheel?

I'm also running BC-BD Holley's which it seems to like and even SEEMS to idle smoother with.


You can just fishtail anywhere and anytime that you want with this setup and you can absolutely act like a derelict Dodge Boy doughnut hole if you want to compete with stupidity on the street with them?



As far as, "is a 427 Ford block worth it?" My engine builder will no longer touch an original Ford 427 block. He out and out calls them crap. In explation to me, "they are just thin crappy castings".

HE says the 428 blocks are better and thicker castings, pointing out that FE blocks "evolve" step by step into better "beings" then the 427 blocks do. He reminds me that the purpose of the 427's was to be able to survive 7,000 rpm races for 500 miles. Period. End of story.

In his view they are more reputation then fact. Kind of like the "Headless Horseman" at Halloween time?


I stayed with a period correct 428 for the car, standard bore A scratch, stock crank with Eagle h-beam rods. Stock heads with CJ valves.

I can't go any faster anyway. My hands keep slipping off of that silly wood steering wheel while I'm holding on for life. Speed you see is all relative...and NONE of my relatives are allowed to drive the car.

[pbf777]

My engine builder will no longer touch an original Ford 427 block. He out and out calls them crap. In explation to me, "they are just thin crappy castings".

HE says the 428 blocks are better and thicker castings, pointing out that FE blocks "evolve" step by step into better "beings" then the 427 blocks do.

     Well I suppose in the world of things the 427's are somewhat light on the metal sum front, but then that's what they were suppose to be as intended and stated by Ford Motor Company as "thin-wall-castings"; this for the purpose of attempting to control the overall weight of the engine assembly.  And this holds true for all of the FE's, and this functioned fine as delivered by the O.E.M., with no notable advantage really for any of them as can be witnessed by the interchangeability of the casting cores as practiced by Ford in the production of blocks over the decades.  Yes, I know there are those who will swear that this block is better than that block, and yes there will be variations in the production runs, better and worse, and yes perhaps one will find a 390 block in which Ford used the 428 water-jacket cores in the casting process (see comment previously), one with the 'extra' reinforcement ribs in the mains and maybe one finds an FT 501 block or what every that may actually prove 'better', but they are all still "thin-wall-castings" and more of being the same than that of being significantly different 

    The real problem is that this engineering is from the 1950's, the specific castings are at best from the 1970's, and since that time, and particularly the 427's which most often where acquired day one for some sort of 'hell-raising', and are pretty much beat to death by today.  Then not to mention the public wants performance production sums of 'today' not of that 'back-then' hence the blocks are being subjected to power levels never intended, or even contemplated at that time, and as that which they were engineering for; and not to mention they've already been around the block a few times, bored out and reworked (salvaged) perhaps even had several lives, and now we want to compare them to some new product off the shelf?      

     Generally if the old casting is of sound state, preferably still of standard bore as acquired, never blown-up, basically only finishing off it's first or a kindly second life (unfortunately it seems most 427's are past their 9th! ) then pretty much any of them will support something less than 650 H.P., but beyond 700 H.P. any of them become a problem and at this point, yes, one should be looking at something other than an old production unit.   

     Just my observation!   

     Scott.




     

[pbf777]

     Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside   

     Scott.

[Kent]

Wow this thread went really good, interesting facts and a lot of knowledge. Yes the 428 with some mods is the way to go. Some more ideas are welcome but as I said there was really some great input on the last 3 sites.

[shelbydoug]

     Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside   

     Scott.

I won't tell! Trick away! 


(...a 427 Griffith coming sometime soon?  )

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.

Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.

I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.

But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0

[shelbydoug]

Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.

Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.

I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.

But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0

I have A3's in my Pantera with 180 headers.

At one time I had a 351C in my 68 GT350. Those heads in that chassis are a tight fit  BUT Jay Bittle built a "BIG TUBE" set of headers for it.

Then I had to wrestle with the Webers and it all became a "bah-humbug" setup in the Shelby for me.


No problem. With the advent of inexpensive 347 kits, the original 302 went back in with just a couple of little things changed. Little details. 

The Webers went on the Pantera with the A3 heads and a matching Hall "high port" Weber intake manifold.


So all is well here although I do remember Nicholson making a comment about his iron heads with the radically modified exhausts making "a lot more power" then the A3's (someone specifically asked him about that) BUT with him, you need to remember "gamesmanship" is part of what he did in attempting to intimidate the competition.

Great pictures of  the modified heads.

[Blackcar]

A good set of Cleveland headers for a 68 Mustang.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

They'd be too low on my car. The driver side header on mine goes over the bell housing. Then into a pair of 4" in 4" out Flowmasters on the passenger side. Originally they went out the side but were moved under the car to try to get it quiet enough for Laguna Seca.

[Kent]

I built these for my 68 drag fastback with the 438 Windsor

[shelbydoug]

I didn't save a picture of the JBA headers, re: 351-c w/A3 heads in '68 Shelby. No such thing as a smart phone back then. I was dealing with Jay then and he said he built several sets so there are still some out there somewhere?

These are on my Pantera. Built by my "Buddy Stan" at FPA for Gary Hall. 2" primaries. If I listen carefully, I can still hear him moaning, cursing and throwing wrenches working on them. 

The last time I spoke to him he started screaming at me on the phone about clearances for the clutch linkages and told me to get a hydraulic clutch and come into the real world. I keep watching the "Network News" at night waiting for him to appear after killing a dozen people who were walking by with their dogs.

It HAS been pointed out to me that sometimes I seem to be needlessly harsh to others. It probably has to do with being screamed at, items thrown at me and run out of the shop. It's an extensive list of the "Who's, who". I was just trying to be nice. It isn't an excuse, just an explanation.

I gave up building headers after two sets. Both wound up weighing more then cast iron manifolds. I still can't weld worth a crap now.