Headers for GT500

[427heaven]

Glad to help... In the beginning I have put combos of words together that would make a drunken sailor proud, at the time I was also proud, now an occasional burst of something under my breath escapes sometimes. With practice you will get much better just don't attempt in the blazing sun. Hope this stuff helps.

[67GT500#1594]

Well here's my two cents...  I installed JBA tri y's on my previous 67 Shelby clone build. I still have the Hooker headers but deamed they would hang down too low for my build. I used the clone as a "measuring stick" to see what would work or didn't work on my 67 Shelby. I also dropped the A arms 1 inch AND used the TMC front coils with a drop. The rake was perfect and it drove nice!

Header issues!! It was the single, hardest and most frustrating thing I've EVER done on a car!! EVER! The JBA's were built beautifully, fit was about 90%. I still had to flatten out one side tube about 3/8", while in the car!! When installed I literally had 3/8" on the passenger side and 5/16" on the driver side shock towers. The main problem was I had typical 12-6 8 bolt pattern heads (427 style). I tried every single way you can think of to install them. I cussed so loud my wife thought I'd hurt myself! She tried with her small hands to install the lower bolts on the drivers side and cussed! Like said before, it's the sharp angles on tubes 2/3, 6/6 that make it impossible. Installed, they worked great but dear Jesus!

I have a really huge challenge now as I want to install a special 427 in my Shelby. It requires BIG tube headers. I have the correct 428 on the side for originality. I've looked at headers till I'm blue. The best header I've found that FITS and is performance oriented is from REF in Arizona. They're really nice and really pricey, about $1600. The key is they're individual tubes and they are built on a jig to your specs! T pan, Lakewood, 4spd, etc, no problem.

I've even thought of building my own similar style with a local builder. I have a 67 coupe, the mock up block and everything to help build some "perfect" headers. I even fielded interest in building multiple sets but it's a lot of development costs. I tried some headers from my local guy, similar to a 60's drag racing design. They are really nice! BUT, I do plan on turning more than a few degrees left or right! 

I got pics of the headers that fit but can't seemed to post them.

Simply, a big block Mustang isn't cheap by any means and while a SB is way easier you can't replace the shear torque of a tuned FE! Did I mention I created new tools to help with the installation??

Regards, Matt

[shelbydoug]

What I would suggest is that you use the Hooker headers. It's the collectors that are what seem low.

Put them in the car, then cut the collector, angle it up, tack weld it in place, then take them out weld them up and put the finish on them.

If you do that, they are likely to be the best fit that exists. The individual tube routing is fine.


They are low in that area by about 1/2 the thickness of the tube or in other words, they could go up right there by about 3/4". The collector angles down from that spot and makes them look lower.


IF you look at the head flow numbers on even the 427 heads, the flow numbers are not that impressive in today's terms. The 1-3/4" tubes are actually sufficient.

The reality is big tube headers will not make more power UNLESS you increase the intake flow. That really means a nice aftermarket head. Not a factory iron head.


DO NOT use the 427 MR bolt pattern head. Use the 428CJ bolt pattern.

[FL SAAC]

What I would suggest is that you use the Hooker headers. It's the collectors that are what seem low.

Put them in the car, then cut the collector, angle it up, tack weld it in place, then take them out weld them up and put the finish on them.

If you do that, they are likely to be the best fit that exists. The individual tube routing is fine.


They are low in that area by about 1/2 the thickness of the tube or in other words, they could go up right there by about 3/4". The collector angles down from that spot and makes them look lower.


IF you look at the head flow numbers on even the 427 heads, the flow numbers are not that impressive in today's terms. The 1-3/4" tubes are actually sufficient.

The reality is big tube headers will not make more power UNLESS you increase the intake flow. That really means a nice aftermarket head. Not a factory iron head.


DO NOT use the 427 MR bolt pattern head. Use the 428CJ bolt pattern.

+ 1 hookers

[67GT500#1594]

Thanks shelbydoug. Well my heads flow 375-380 cfm. It's actually a 67 NASCAR Tunnel Port with a GT40 LeMans Dual Plane intake, 496 CI, detuned... I know, I know... Special car- special motor, lots of background stories.

I don't have a 428 CJ bolt pattern, first problem. Yes, the Hookers could be modified but still won't seal up good enough I'm afraid. I'd hate to loose too much HP by smaller tubes. The only real way to make a TP work is big cubes.

It's all a fun project without altering the original set up. More sentimental than anything.

Regards, Matt

[427heaven]

What a great engine package. Try a custom set of Kooks they are jewelry for performance or race applications.

[Bigfoot]

Custom set.
Hand made
Problem solved

[1967 eight barrel]

I have jet hot coated 6114 Hooker Super Comps. They fit perfect and I didn't have to ding or bend anything for clearance. They were perfect. What I do suggest is opening up the bolt holes slightly in the flange.  You'll also need the drop bracket for the power steering cylinder. The only place that is a bitch to change plugs is the left rear two plugs by the booster/master cylinder. The other trick I use is removing the valve covers. It really does free up a lot of room.  Yes, you have to remove the export brace to remove the valve covers. Be sure to use a little dielectric grease on the plug boots too. The only big block mustang I struggled with to the point of throwing tools was a 1967 390. The shock towers were the issue. They had cracked and shifted.  As usual, I can't post pictures.

                                                                                                      -Keith

[shelbydoug]

I would suspect that there is enough variation in each set of Hookers to show these installation variations.
What I did was take a set of used headers that had already been fit to the car.

In these cars even the upper a-arm studs and nuts can get in the way.



Traditionally, a 427 Ford is no more high a rever then a 428 is. There is about another 500rpm in them considering that you use an aftermarket camshaft, valve springs, rods and bolts.

Even the GT40 MkII's that won at Lemans were limited rpm wise to 6,000 rpms.

There are two main problems with racing the original 427's. 1)The valve spring technology limited the rpms 2) the blocks can't handle the rpm

It's virtue was/is that it puts down 550 lb-ft or torque almost from 1,500 rpm on a very flat torque curve (almost straight) to the red line and that it was installed in a 2,500 pound car creating a land cruise missile called the Cobra.



As I remember shopping for a used 427 Cobra, I couldn't find one with even 5,000 miles that either didn't have a broken engine or already had a non-broken one installed. These are not Formula 1 race engines by any means. Even trying to find a nice used block that wasn't broken was challenging.



It's ironic that even small block Windsors  now make more horsepower and almost as much torque then the traditional 450hp the original engines show on the dyno.

All that considered it' probably a big part of the equation why so many GT500's have been returned to stock or close to it.



You can get big tube headers into the car but getting the tube lengths equal are virtually impossible. You need equal length tubes for big hp numbers.

I do seem to remember though that Doug's had a set of big tube 180's with slip tubes offered for a short time around '67-8 for a while. The problem back then with headers was that there was no way to keep paint on them and certainly no one would build stainless versions because of the basic tube benders even the header manufacturers were using couldn't handle the stainless tubing right.

I can't think of even one set of those headers I have seen for sale in the last 45 years. I do know of one set for a Boss 302. Those were big tubes (2-1/8" I think) but they just rusted away.



If you are going to turn big rpm's with a "427" you need an aftermarket block. A Pond or the equivalent. There's a reason original 427 blocks are so difficult to find. Most of them broke.

Why do I say all this, because the limitations make installing "NASA BUILT" headers with this combination are just a noble academic exercise in futility.  The Hookers will do everything I need.

"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - Winston Churchill.


Best of luck on your endeavor. Dilly, dilly!

[FL SAAC]

I would suspect that there is enough variation in each set of Hookers to show these installation variations.
What I did was take a set of used headers that had already been fit to the car.

In these cars even the upper a-arm studs and nuts can get in the way.



Traditionally, a 427 Ford is no more high a rever then a 428 is. There is about another 500rpm in them considering that you use an aftermarket camshaft, valve springs, rods and bolts.

Even the GT40 MkII's that won at Lemans were limited rpm wise to 6,000 rpms.

There are two main problems with racing the original 427's. 1)The valve spring technology limited the rpms 2) the blocks can't handle the rpm

It's virtue was/is that it puts down 550 lb-ft or torque almost from 1,500 rpm on a very flat torque curve (almost straight) to the red line and that it was installed in a 2,500 pound car creating a land cruise missile called the Cobra.



As I remember shopping for a used 427 Cobra, I couldn't find one with even 5,000 miles that either didn't have a broken engine or already had a non-broken one installed. These are not Formula 1 race engines by any means. Even trying to find a nice used block that wasn't broken was challenging.



It's ironic that even small block Windsors  now make more horsepower and almost as much torque then the traditional 450hp the original engines show on the dyno.

All that considered it' probably a big part of the equation why so many GT500's have been returned to stock or close to it.



You can get big tube headers into the car but getting the tube lengths equal are virtually impossible. You need equal length tubes for big hp numbers.

I do seem to remember though that Doug's had a set of big tube 180's with slip tubes offered for a short time around '67-8 for a while. The problem back then with headers was that there was no way to keep paint on them and certainly no one would build stainless versions because of the basic tube benders even the header manufacturers were using couldn't handle the stainless tubing right.

I can't think of even one set of those headers I have seen for sale in the last 45 years. I do know of one set for a Boss 302. Those were big tubes (2-1/8" I think) but they just rusted away.



If you are going to turn big rpm's with a "427" you need an aftermarket block. A Pond or the equivalent. There's a reason original 427 blocks are so difficult to find. Most of them broke.

Why do I say all this, because the limitations make installing "NASA BUILT" headers with this combination are just a noble academic exercise in futility.  The Hookers will do everything I need.

"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - Winston Churchill.


Best of luck on your endeavor. Dilly, dilly!

+ 1 very well expressed

[67GT500#1594]

Agreed with everything you say Shelbydoug.

Like most projects with background stories, they always started off with good intentions. My cars previous owner always wanted a car with "500 HP". We are still best friends and I had the motor that could provide. That was the plan at least. To pair up arguably the baddest car available from 1967 with the engine that won everything for Ford that same year!

All things being a given, rebuilding a 428 compared to a 427 isn't too much different in between, most of the time.

My engine was a legit 67 Holman Moody NASCAR TP. The block was even a standard bore side oiler that "looked" perfect. Well it wasn't. The engine builder is one of best FE builders known WITH experiences on the TP, it's a different animal. He found stress cracks at the main bearing oiling holes on all three mains!! This block was probably never used past a Dyno as it was truly perfect. Thankfully he was able to locate a new BBM block as they are very scarce. That added an extra 5K to the project! Then in efforts to maximize "street able" HP/TQ a NOS dual plane GT40 "XE" 2x4 intake was sourced and used. This intake was still in its original box and one of 24 made! This is the same intake used at LeMans. This intake was marked $16, it was matched to a set of aluminum heads with $16 too, at one time. This intake visually looks just like the stock dual plane used on a 67 GT500 with two extra bolts. Dressed out with all the stock items it's almost virtually undetectable. The heads were actually filled and ports were closed up in efforts to improve the CSA's. The intake was matched and modified to inhance the CSA's. This identical set up with a more aggressive cam and single plane 2x4 intake made 712 HP! I didn't need those numbers. We still haven't dynoned the engine but it's expected to make a honest 600-620 HP/TQ.

I told the builder, " I just want to make HP/TQ effortlessly". Build it for strength and longevity. It has the BBM block, RPM billet crank, SCAT rods, forged custom race pistons, upgraded valvetrain, T&D roller rockers, etc. It should be the ticket.

When I installed the individual tube headers to mock it up, they worked much much better. They are more equal length as they curl around in and out. These just need more work to clear the pitman and idler arms. And ground clearances too. You can change the starter easier by only taking a tube out for clearances. To make the headers in stainless steel adds $3k to the price, so $4600!!! I can't imagine how much inconel headers would be!!

I've got EVERYTHING to mock up this motor in a spare 67 coupe, it might just be the way to go. If you need to make changes on the fly, you can. I know many are pleased with the REF headers but that's still a gamble and a long ways away from GA to AR! It's all doable, just money and time...

[Bigfoot]

I'll also make a nod 4 Super Comps. Like those .

[shelbydoug]

Agreed with everything you say Shelbydoug.

Like most projects with background stories, they always started off with good intentions. My cars previous owner always wanted a car with "500 HP". We are still best friends and I had the motor that could provide. That was the plan at least. To pair up arguably the baddest car available from 1967 with the engine that won everything for Ford that same year!

All things being a given, rebuilding a 428 compared to a 427 isn't too much different in between, most of the time.

My engine was a legit 67 Holman Moody NASCAR TP. The block was even a standard bore side oiler that "looked" perfect. Well it wasn't. The engine builder is one of best FE builders known WITH experiences on the TP, it's a different animal. He found stress cracks at the main bearing oiling holes on all three mains!! This block was probably never used past a Dyno as it was truly perfect. Thankfully he was able to locate a new BBM block as they are very scarce. That added an extra 5K to the project! Then in efforts to maximize "street able" HP/TQ a NOS dual plane GT40 "XE" 2x4 intake was sourced and used. This intake was still in its original box and one of 24 made! This is the same intake used at LeMans. This intake was marked $16, it was matched to a set of aluminum heads with $16 too, at one time. This intake visually looks just like the stock dual plane used on a 67 GT500 with two extra bolts. Dressed out with all the stock items it's almost virtually undetectable. The heads were actually filled and ports were closed up in efforts to improve the CSA's. The intake was matched and modified to inhance the CSA's. This identical set up with a more aggressive cam and single plane 2x4 intake made 712 HP! I didn't need those numbers. We still haven't dynoned the engine but it's expected to make a honest 600-620 HP/TQ.

I told the builder, " I just want to make HP/TQ effortlessly". Build it for strength and longevity. It has the BBM block, RPM billet crank, SCAT rods, forged custom race pistons, upgraded valvetrain, T&D roller rockers, etc. It should be the ticket.

When I installed the individual tube headers to mock it up, they worked much much better. They are more equal length as they curl around in and out. These just need more work to clear the pitman and idler arms. And ground clearances too. You can change the starter easier by only taking a tube out for clearances. To make the headers in stainless steel adds $3k to the price, so $4600!!! I can't imagine how much inconel headers would be!!

I've got EVERYTHING to mock up this motor in a spare 67 coupe, it might just be the way to go. If you need to make changes on the fly, you can. I know many are pleased with the REF headers but that's still a gamble and a long ways away from GA to AR! It's all doable, just money and time...

Did I just detect a statement from you that says you are going to use FORD ALUMINUM HEADS? OMG! DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE THE FORD ALUMINUM HEADS!

Back in the day before God created light, Ford had this "BRILLIANT IDEA" of lightening engine parts for COMPETITION ONLY use. Their FE heads were no exception.



Now on the surface, the THOUGHT is genius. The problem was that the head engineer was George Castanza's Grand Father.

What they did was take the molds for the iron heads and just pour aluminium into them. There in lies the problem. THOSE heads will RARELY survive one 500 mile race.

When you change metals, you need to change the molds. By Fords OWN admission, you can't run over 10.3:1 compression with them because they are SO thin, the combustion chambers will crumble.



To add insult to the injury, to go over 6,000 rpm, you needed to put stronger valve springs in them and then the walls in the valve pockets between the intake and the exhaust CRACK creating coolant leaks into both the intake and exhaust ports!

They are so thin, that when you reweld them, you need to insert aluminum gussets into the water passages to keep them from braking again AND you cannot polish down the built up weld in the ports to return the flow to the head.



I had a set of the C6FE6049B, aluminum medium riser heads. The ones that they put in the 66 GT40 MkIV heads and incidentally the same ones as in the Super Snake.

All I can tell you is that I only got them on a deal because they were both broken (as described above). I took them to Diamond on LI (Diamond Pro Stock Racing chassis). They were the only ones crazy enough to think that they could be repaired.



The Ford valve seats were originally some kind of iconel super space stuff which at the time were not obtainable. Ford got the material out of the "space program" and had the seats machined themselves since it was all classified "National Defense Materials" and only available to National Defense Contractors.

Well Diamond did what they could. They got the iron BB Chevy cast iron ones and pressed them in.
As I recall, there were two cylinders involved on each head.



Well what happened is that every time they would press the seats in, the head would recrack back down into the ports.

This went on for at least four episodes, three different welders and eventually the seats got installed without recracking the ports BUT the amount of weld that needed to be left on the surface of the port virtually ruined the flow.

I remember the welders words "DON'T UNDER ANY CONDITIONS TOUCH THE WELDS".



So ok, this is my sorrowful story and maybe yours will be different BUT virtually EVERYONE who has tried to use ANY of the FE original Ford aluminum castings has described them the same way. Just a bucket of shit waiting to spill all over you at any minute.

If I were you, put them back into those original boxes and put them on Ebay and get what you can for them.



I would predict there is some fool who will probably offer you $10,000, for the heads alone and if that is the magnesium intake, probably another $10,000 for it to.

Take the money and run. Run as far as you can, then hide, because when that engine gets put together and breaks, someone with a lot of money is going to get very, very pissed and look for revenge.


Billy Joel has a lyric in "pressure". It says paraphrasing here, "you have no scars on your face". It isn't so much about having grey hair (which I have plenty of BUT I got hair), it's about surviving these "episodes" without having even been shot once...so far at least. 



In Ford's case, they didn't care. In your case, you will. They'll come looking for you. You might need to change your name too? May your journey be as wondrous as mine. Interesting people that one meets along the roadside when broken down waiting for the tow.

[rbarkley]

I paid $1038 for my FPA headers last June 2017.   

The set-up includes ceramic coating ($235),  p/s drop bracket ($39), headers for a 427 MR with C6 trans ($695) plus shipping and packing.

I would imagine the price is similar for a 4 speed trans.

Ron

[Bob Gaines]

Agreed with everything you say Shelbydoug.

Like most projects with background stories, they always started off with good intentions. My cars previous owner always wanted a car with "500 HP". We are still best friends and I had the motor that could provide. That was the plan at least. To pair up arguably the baddest car available from 1967 with the engine that won everything for Ford that same year!

All things being a given, rebuilding a 428 compared to a 427 isn't too much different in between, most of the time.

My engine was a legit 67 Holman Moody NASCAR TP. The block was even a standard bore side oiler that "looked" perfect. Well it wasn't. The engine builder is one of best FE builders known WITH experiences on the TP, it's a different animal. He found stress cracks at the main bearing oiling holes on all three mains!! This block was probably never used past a Dyno as it was truly perfect. Thankfully he was able to locate a new BBM block as they are very scarce. That added an extra 5K to the project! Then in efforts to maximize "street able" HP/TQ a NOS dual plane GT40 "XE" 2x4 intake was sourced and used. This intake was still in its original box and one of 24 made! This is the same intake used at LeMans. This intake was marked $16, it was matched to a set of aluminum heads with $16 too, at one time. This intake visually looks just like the stock dual plane used on a 67 GT500 with two extra bolts. Dressed out with all the stock items it's almost virtually undetectable. The heads were actually filled and ports were closed up in efforts to improve the CSA's. The intake was matched and modified to inhance the CSA's. This identical set up with a more aggressive cam and single plane 2x4 intake made 712 HP! I didn't need those numbers. We still haven't dynoned the engine but it's expected to make a honest 600-620 HP/TQ.

I told the builder, " I just want to make HP/TQ effortlessly". Build it for strength and longevity. It has the BBM block, RPM billet crank, SCAT rods, forged custom race pistons, upgraded valvetrain, T&D roller rockers, etc. It should be the ticket.

When I installed the individual tube headers to mock it up, they worked much much better. They are more equal length as they curl around in and out. These just need more work to clear the pitman and idler arms. And ground clearances too. You can change the starter easier by only taking a tube out for clearances. To make the headers in stainless steel adds $3k to the price, so $4600!!! I can't imagine how much inconel headers would be!!

I've got EVERYTHING to mock up this motor in a spare 67 coupe, it might just be the way to go. If you need to make changes on the fly, you can. I know many are pleased with the REF headers but that's still a gamble and a long ways away from GA to AR! It's all doable, just money and time...

Did I just detect a statement from you that says you are going to use FORD ALUMINUM HEADS? OMG! DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE THE FORD ALUMINUM HEADS!

Back in the day before God created light, Ford had this "BRILLIANT IDEA" of lightening engine parts for COMPETITION ONLY use. Their FE heads were no exception.



Now on the surface, the THOUGHT is genius. The problem was that the head engineer was George Castanza's Grand Father.

What they did was take the molds for the iron heads and just pour aluminium into them. There in lies the problem. THOSE heads will RARELY survive one 500 mile race.

When you change metals, you need to change the molds. By Fords OWN admission, you can't run over 10.3:1 compression with them because they are SO thin, the combustion chambers will crumble.



To add insult to the injury, to go over 6,000 rpm, you needed to put stronger valve springs in them and then the walls in the valve pockets between the intake and the exhaust CRACK creating coolant leaks into both the intake and exhaust ports!

They are so thin, that when you reweld them, you need to insert aluminum gussets into the water passages to keep them from braking again AND you cannot polish down the built up weld in the ports to return the flow to the head.



I had a set of the C6FE6049B, aluminum medium riser heads. The ones that they put in the 66 GT40 MkIV heads and incidentally the same ones as in the Super Snake.

All I can tell you is that I only got them on a deal because they were both broken (as described above). I took them to Diamond on LI (Diamond Pro Stock Racing chassis). They were the only ones crazy enough to think that they could be repaired.



The Ford valve seats were originally some kind of iconel super space stuff which at the time were not obtainable. Ford got the material out of the "space program" and had the seats machined themselves since it was all classified "National Defense Materials" and only available to National Defense Contractors.

Well Diamond did what they could. They got the iron BB Chevy cast iron ones and pressed them in.
As I recall, there were two cylinders involved on each head.



Well what happened is that every time they would press the seats in, the head would recrack back down into the ports.

This went on for at least four episodes, three different welders and eventually the seats got installed without recracking the ports BUT the amount of weld that needed to be left on the surface of the port virtually ruined the flow.

I remember the welders words "DON'T UNDER ANY CONDITIONS TOUCH THE WELDS".



So ok, this is my sorrowful story and maybe yours will be different BUT virtually EVERYONE who has tried to use ANY of the FE original Ford aluminum castings has described them the same way. Just a bucket of shit waiting to spill all over you at any minute.

If I were you, put them back into those original boxes and put them on Ebay and get what you can for them.



I would predict there is some fool who will probably offer you $10,000, for the heads alone and if that is the magnesium intake, probably another $10,000 for it to.

Take the money and run. Run as far as you can, then hide, because when that engine gets put together and breaks, someone with a lot of money is going to get very, very pissed and look for revenge.


Billy Joel has a lyric in "pressure". It says paraphrasing here, "you have no scars on your face". It isn't so much about having grey hair (which I have plenty of BUT I got hair), it's about surviving these "episodes" without having even been shot once...so far at least. 



In Ford's case, they didn't care. In your case, you will. They'll come looking for you. You might need to change your name too? May your journey be as wondrous as mine. Interesting people that one meets along the roadside when broken down waiting for the tow.

+1 with a bad experience which included several blown head gaskets that lead to a change to a non Ford brand aluminum head.