Should we remove members post counts from the forum?

[Bigfoot]

It's difficult to police the "unpoliceable" when there's insufficient law or manpower to back it up with.

Without proper moderation, this and other forums tend to devolve into a "Lord of the Flies" childlike-mentality society of bullying and ostracism mixed with kingly hubris, annoying trolls, phonies, deceivers and many other dysfunctions.

Will eliminating the post count improve any of that? Who knows unless we try it.

But, while that change may make newbies feel more comfortable (I guess we couldn't call them "newbies"anymore) what would prevent any of us from counting our own posts (or making up a giant number) and putting that impressive participation trophy on our signature line?

IMO, the post count isn't the problem. It's some of the posters.

Since this is a public forum, anyone can lurk or become a super-contributor. With the ease of changing screen names, or establishing an entirely different account/web address via a VPN, there's no realistic way to totally ban someone from ever posting again.

If the forum became mostly private, with a couple of public areas (as mentioned earlier in this thread) that might be the answer. Full access would require a current membership. Just like at a gym or country club. 

Thoughts?

Hey Van
I love the Lord of the Flies reference. Great seeing you.

[OldGuy]

There are many well-thought-out comments that have been submitted in a diplomatic manner. I personally feel that removing member post counts is a disservice to those whom I truly respect and consider the underpinnings of this forum and the technical knowledge/history of all things Shelby. Their post count should be even higher as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, I don't appreciate all the clutter (like what's happening in Florida every five minutes) that appears for no other apparent reason than to boost post count. I personally will not even open posts from repeat offenders as they serve no useful purpose, in my opinion. If I've offended a frequent Florida poster with my input, too bad. I chose to NOT be diplomatic with my comment. Sometimes the message gets buried.

Frank

[Krelboyne]

     If I might comment;  I feel that "post counts" considerations should not be a tool for governing the function of the forum, that is to be regulated by the rules set forth and enforcement of such.  The idea that if we just make a minutia feature that we think might be a driving force for a few, which I assume this intent would be for those that might not be presenting postings of an appreciated subject matter but rather just flood the site with banter assumably solely for post count purposes, then better regulation is the answer, not limiting features to the entirety of the group.   

     I would fear otherwise that a policy of removing currently available features being deemed as the simplest solution to control the few, follows similarly to to choice in attempting to control homicides in the society by first removing the guns from being available, but then realizing that knives are now a problem so further regulation is required with still fewer choices for the masses, then baseball bats, sling-shots, before long bricks will need regulating!   

     I believe the intended value in the posting counts feature is that this perhaps provides some guidance to the readers as to the possible validity of the comments being made, as otherwise with proper regulation the disfavored poster would shall we say..........have been tarred & feathered, and run out of town!   

     Scott.

Very well said.

Maybe posts made to the following areas of the forum should not count towards an individuals post counts: The Lounge, Deals and Appeals, Regional Forums, and The Lounge.

[rhjanes]

     If I might comment;  I feel that "post counts" considerations should not be a tool for governing the function of the forum, that is to be regulated by the rules set forth and enforcement of such.  The idea that if we just make a minutia feature that we think might be a driving force for a few, which I assume this intent would be for those that might not be presenting postings of an appreciated subject matter but rather just flood the site with banter assumably solely for post count purposes, then better regulation is the answer, not limiting features to the entirety of the group.   

     I would fear otherwise that a policy of removing currently available features being deemed as the simplest solution to control the few, follows similarly to to choice in attempting to control homicides in the society by first removing the guns from being available, but then realizing that knives are now a problem so further regulation is required with still fewer choices for the masses, then baseball bats, sling-shots, before long bricks will need regulating!   

     I believe the intended value in the posting counts feature is that this perhaps provides some guidance to the readers as to the possible validity of the comments being made, as otherwise with proper regulation the disfavored poster would shall we say..........have been tarred & feathered, and run out of town!   

     Scott.

Very well said.

Maybe posts made to the following areas of the forum should not count towards an individuals post counts: The Lounge, Deals and Appeals, Regional Forums, and The Lounge.

I'm aware of several forums who don't count posts in off-topic areas.  Some also don't count in the "For Sale/Trade".   And at least two forums (Not cars) who have an active For/Sale/Looking To Buy sub-forums, to post in those forums you must have a post count, say over 100.  Even then, people have been caught and banned for abusing it.  Such as a scammer got on, posted 100 post to any topic they could "Yeah, I agree"  (that's ONE!) do that 100 times and then start posting stuff for sale and scamming people.
So, post count can be used as a tool for forums.  It can also be abused. 

[TLea]

I have no problem getting rid of counts. I also think member since....... Really it's just the same thing as counts. I've been a member since 1974 that doesn't make me any more or less of a jerk than anybody else out there. (probably more.)

[TLea]

I am still waiting for my answer on where to buy a nice repro 67 deluxe door panel for my Shelby. I got no reply, no answer, crickets as they say. But Man did this post grab attention! PHEW!

I'm sorry you didn't get a reply. I saw it but honestly I've only used original or the ones made by dashes direct. I don't know if there are other choices

[JohnSlack]

One of the members I respect the most has a really low post count. The member I respect the least and go out of my way to ignore has a ton of Florida based posts.


Just saying.

John

[427heaven]

I have no problem getting rid of counts. I also think member since....... Really it's just the same thing as counts. I've been a member since 1974 that doesn't make me any more or less of a jerk than anybody else out there. (probably more.)

Im with Tim on this... Get rid of the counts, get rid of the years they have been on here. NO one really cares except those that like to fluff up their own feathers, everyone else says WHO CARES.This is a site that gets smaller and smaller each year, many are just plain tired of the BS spewed from the 5-6 individuals who belong to the Good OL Boys club, Their way or pound sand... to Floridians or others! If we are more and more select on who says what in here that is bad news Is it better to post for the millionth time Dont install Caution fan sticker, or their paint daubs are in the wrong place?... At least Tony posts about cruises, food, car shows, races, going fishing, and a bunch of other normal good times, without a constant barrage of negativity from the G O B C members. Its not how long we have been saying things but more what/how things are said that is important in life.

[TransamEd]

An invisible number (Post count) won't cure the disturbances. The motivation of a troll is not a count, but disturbance and provoking the audience. Easier to block the disturbance at the entrance via all channels that lead to this forum, if forum rules are violated. The problem seems to be rather a clear Forum rule.

[RRACER]

I have enjoyed following this forum for many years.  I currently don't own a Shelby, but aspire to join the ownership ranks at some point in the future (all I need is $80K....right?). Until that time, I have been trying to read and learn as much as possible about the cars, restoration details, history, etc.  This forum and the many who contribute to it are such a great source of knowledge. Thank You to those that are willing to answer questions and share their vast knowledge - I've learned a lot from you, but still have a long way to go!  With that said, it really doesn't take long to get a sense of those who add true value to the forum and those that just like to make "noise" with their self-serving, petty and often immature posts. 

I am ok with removing the post counter. I personally don't look at the number as it seems to be a meaningless measure and doesn't reflect the quality of the posts.  I don't think removing the number however, will have an impact on the amount of "noise" on the forum.

[Side-Oilers]

I'm willing to try about anything that improves the atmosphere on the forum. 

I do, however, see a good reason to allow people to continue to have their "number of years of SAAC membership" in their signature.  Because it gives, at least, the credibility that:

1. The person has been around for a while, and is probably somewhat knowledgeable on Shelbys.
2. The person supports our club.
3. The person is probably a "real" adult human and not an AI bot or some 12 year old looking to rile-up people.

I've been a member since 1981.  Longer than many, not as long as some. Like a membership in a country club or bowling league...it shows commitment to the subject at hand.

I also think it's fun and interesting to read (in signature lines, as an example) what makes and models of cars the person owns/owned.
The reasons why exactly support my points 1-3 above. 

Should we now be expecting someone to be upset about that? It is indeed purely "self-serving."

[J_Speegle]

On the "other side" (of eliminating the counts) I find the post count helpful when we know the poster has few posts and is either a newish member or poster. Often this suggests a need for more information will needed to be shared in the response or more explaining. In ways I see the question of eliminating the post counts as trying to deal with the symptoms rather than the cause. No rule or plan will be perfect and the unintended consequences must be considered . If these choices were easy then the question would not need to be discussed and careful consideration given.

Of course even the public discussion of the "issue" will reward the same people that are made reference to in this discussion 

[deathsled]

Post counts?  Does a lawyer worry about his post counts? Does anyone worry about post counts for that matter?  I focus on the win counts for my clients in court, not post counts on a website.  If anything, revisiting my post counts makes me want to post even less because it becomes a painful reminder of the amount of time I have spent making posts, time that could be spent elsewhere.  I have expended considerable time making content for this site that some consider valuable as evidenced by their commentary while others have found not so valuable though I have not observed any rude words generated from my content for the most part.  Nor have I ever posted any profanity or gone on the attack with a rude diatribe against anyone on this site.  I, for one, do not believe I have been a chronic offender for adding officious remarks to the SAAC Forum though some of you may disagree.  Let me say this, you are entitled to your opinion.  And that's the point isn't it?  I have lusted after a Shelby long before there was ever a SAAC in existence let alone a "virtual" SAAC online.  In other words, I certainly can, and certainly do, enjoy my cars independent of this website and forum.  Recently, I saw a request for more writers to participate on or within SAAC which gives certain indicia that your writer base is shrinking ("failing" might be a better word).  Given the foregoing, it follows a priori that the site may be dying.  It is no secret that upcoming generations are far less interested in anything automotive than we ever were, and they regard cars as throw away appliances.  I am 60 years old as of June 2023.  I caught the tail end of the muscle car boom in the 1970s when they were simply used cars.  I began driving in 1979.  I believe that many on this site may be much older than 60 which leads me to my next point.  Someone better start making content that is interesting for the younger generations or these cherished cars will end up in museums and in some instances the scrap pile, as sacrilegious as that may sound.   I have tried to make my content interesting and though it may not appeal to some, I am not looking to win a popularity contest.  Consider me a bridge between Boomers and Gen Xers, maybe Millennials as well.  I have reason to believe that I know how they think having a few of them as friends in the legal profession.  For anyone to seriously be concerned about post counts and to exert needless energy to monitoring how many posts another has put up online, smacks of playground behavior.  I recently posted an article (quickly taken down I might add) in the so-called "Off Topic Lounge" and received this exact DM in my inbox from a moderator which makes me question how "Off Topic" the lounge really allows for, said DM saying and I quote: "Please stop these irrelevant posts, like Adam Driver, etc. Thanks."
First and foremost, this removed post was placed in the so-called "Off Topic" area.  What do the words "Off Topic" mean to the reasonably prudent person?  Allow me to supplement that the "Reasonable man standard" is an actual legal standard used in the law to measure the culpability of an individual in tort litigation.  Let me assure you, I regularly exercise said standard before I post on this site.  The post that was removed was innocuous and inoffensive in its "drive" and content.
Second, the deleted post was about Adam Driver, the star to the new movie entitled "Ferrari" the subject matter of the post being about how Driver wasn't even allowed to drive the cars in the movie for insurance reasons.  I might add that the article came from a noteworthy automotive website that apparently didn't think said article was irrelevant and unworthy of publication.  It was automotive related.  Does the "Off Topic" area now have to be about only Shelbys as well?  Maybe that needs to be spelled out.  Call it "Off Topic but only if it's Shelby related."
Third and directly on point, the DM sent to me by this moderator is the most flimsy set of guidelines I have ever seen when viewed through an attorney lens.  It literally says nothing and essentially asks me to self-censor myself.  Any lawyer reading said DM would clearly know that it was drafted by a non-lawyer (which is not a problem in and of itself) but when you are going to play legislator and draft some rules, you should know what you are doing and draft with clarity and forethought.  We have terminology in the legal profession that nullifies statutes for being "void for vagueness."  No lawyer or judge for that matter could make any sense of that DM.  What is allowed?  What isn't allowed?  To attempt any meaningful statutory construction of the administrator's message "Please stop these irrelevant posts, like Adam Driver, etc. Thanks." is a waste of my time and as we all know, time is all we have.  This is why pro se litigants make a mess of things and clutter up the courtrooms of America by not knowing the law and wasting the court's time with their pointless soliloquies about how they were wronged.  It is simply "eye rolling" to say the least.  You want to set up guidelines for the "Off Topic" Lounge then do so.  Or eradicate the "Off Topic" lounge altogether I really don't care.  Or we can try this.  I can fill up your inbox with private DMs of proposed posts to see if they pass constitutional muster before I post.  How would that work?
Go ahead.  Talk about zinc phosphate on nuts and bolts all day long.  Or talk about the whereabouts of Jim Morrison's 67 G.T. 500.  I am about to do what Enzo Ferrari did during the Ford negotiations.  Just leave and go for an extended lunch and perhaps never come back.  You want a writer?  I considered it at one point but now I am not so inclined.  I have no question in my mind that I know how to write.  So says the Judges that have granted many of my motions for summary judgment over the years or the complaints I have written and filed in court that have survived vicious motions to dismiss by the defense. That is all the affirmation I need and certainly not from SAAC.  I also have creative writing skills but I am not so inclined to use them here anymore.  Get rid of the lounge, I say.  Do it!  But I suspect it won't happen because for some, the Off Topic area is a means to target certain individuals and complain because it satisfies some internal validation of sorts.  Don't read their posts if you don't like them.  I do this to the radio when listening in my car.  If I run across a station I don't want to hear, I turn the dial to classical music or heavy metal or hard rock to cut out the static and I will remember the station(s) I do not like so as not to visit it again.  You don't like the station, change it.  You already know the radio station frequency so why revisit it?  Maybe I should try the other Shelby site and join them but no doubt the same cacophony of complaints might just as easily be found there.  It isn't the forum anymore or the post count, it is what Americans are mutating into where conversation is concerned (far more endemic in the younger generations than the old but maybe SAAC is proving me wrong and that in fact it is society as a whole regardless of age).  I look back to the signers of the Declaration of Independence with awe, one of the many reasons I came to this country.  I will make a list of those of you that have brought value to my life on this site in no particular order except the first one.
1. 98SVT-was06GT  (He changed my life for the better for selling me and my father 6s843 when I was a young man of 31 years and he will never be forgotten for that kindest of all gestures.)
2. Side-Oilers, a man of great integrity and automotive knowledge.
3. 67 GT 350 for his astute observations and car talk
4. Bob Gaines for incredible knowledge on everything automotive, not just Shelby expertise
5. Harris Speedster
6.  acman63 (posthumously)
7. 2112
8. zray
9. Venon Estes
10. Chris Thauberger
11. SFM66H
12. BGlover67
13. SFM6S
14. Mark P
15. capecodmustang.com
16. acapulco350
17. 427hunter
18. Bigfoot
19. Steve McDonald
20. 69 GT 350 Vert
21. gt350hr
22. Corey Bowcutt
23. 69mach351w
24. Kent
25. Wedgeman
26. billmunny
27. Dan Case on his incredible stream of knowledge on Cobras
28. J_Speegle incredible expertise on the nuances of Shelby parts and pieces
29. s2ms for helping understand original versus aftermarket on various items
30. FLSAAC last but not least for his rapier wit and entertaining quips coupled with informative info.
31. KIWI (posthumously)  I always liked his commentary and wit.  Still missed.

Maybe this post will be deleted, maybe it won't.  We shall see.
I haven't hid my face (some might think I should) in my videos so you know who I am.
I will further electronically affix my full name to this post rather than hide behind an avatar.
Richard L. Elsliger

Oh, and before I forget:  Have a lovely, lovely day. Cheers!

In my haste I missed a few others.
32. Crossboss
33. Quicksilvershelby
34. Silverton Ford
35. 557
36. shelbydoug
37. Numerous others over the years as the catchall.

[CharlesTurner]

The only conceivable 'benefit' one can think of with visible post count is buying items offered for sale here.  Some forums have a minimum post count or time period before being able to post in the classifieds or to send PM's/DM's.  Would suggest if removing visible post count, the additional requirements noted are implemented.

[Coralsnake]

I don't think its "playground behavior" to expect people to act like adults or focus on the cars.

I am not saying you have to be serious all the time or not have fun. It is a hobby after all.

I think its the relentless waves of crap and personal attacks people don't like. I personally think that's the genesis of this post.

I must say, more people have posted here than any previous post of mention. My assessment is the majority agree some type of change is needed. I'm not sure what that looks like?

Silence by some is most telling. Facts do speak loudly.