Technical section T/A details

[shelbydoug]

Thanks Doug !!

Sure! I hope it helps?

[JohnSlack]

Yours is so little.

Mine is just another C6OA. No biggie.


I don't know why the pictures are posting so large? It's too early to battle with the computer. I'm just letting it win for now.

Sorry. Mine really isn't bigger then yours.

I changed the pictures and made them larger, I also added two of it's friends since this thread is Technical Section T/A details

[JohnSlack]

damn doug did you sleep last night 

Well...depends? There's sleep and then there's sleep.

I'm not sure why even a race car would need that much pump shot. That is really a throttle response "thing".

You know, all this talk of the "drivers" blowing up the TP's at 9,200 is kind of silly.

IF you ever actually witnessed one of those Trans Am races with the team drivers, you might come to the conclusion that it was an attempted mass suicide? 8,000 rpm was NOTHIN'! They drove the cars like the winner was the one who blew the car up first 'cause they were all tryin' their best to go boom.

The key here is that manifold and now what you can flow on today's heads.


As I said, in switching to the T/A intake from the "turd", the idle vacuum dropped and so far, I can't get it to idle down to 750 like before with 15 inches. It wants 1,100. It may be the intake characteristics.
It is kinda' unique?

It came before tunnel rams existed but has tunnel ram characteristics without looking like one?

I'll get it right. It doesn't keep me from sleeping. Don't worry about that. Yea I sleep last night.

shelbydoug, did I miss the picture of the intake manifold you are talking about? After all I showed you mine before.

The first picture is of the not used 1969 Standard Flange Holley BOSS 302 Intake Dual Plane Intake Manifold - From FoMoCo to Smokey Yunick to Roy Richards to Me - NOS

The second picture is of the latest version of the 1969 BOSS 302 Dual Dominator Intake Independent Runner Intake Manifold From FoMoCo to Shelby American to Wayne Richards to Me to Scott Thomas back to Me - NOS

The third picture is of the 1970 Bud Moore Mini-Plenum for the BOSS 302 From Bud Moore to Rick Kirk to Me - NOS

John

Side views, Note the Standard flange T/A 2x4 and the Dual Dominator are the exact same height.

[shelbydoug]

The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

[JohnSlack]

The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

The Dominator carburetor and intake manifold story is so awesome. There were several series of Dominator intake manifold made up. I have owned several of them over the years. This is actually the first one I ever owned, however I let it go in 1987 trading it for a set of chrome Magnum 500 wheels. I then went through several versions trying to get back to this intake manifold.

Yes each intake had an XE or SK number that told what was different about it.

This intake manifold had two ports that someone had filled with clay to change the shape of the port. This intake is $11 of the final series. I was talking with Larry Ofria who I worked for way back and showed him the intake. He asked me about the clay, when I told him I took it out, he told me that Shelby paid him to put it in to improve the intake manifold ports. Oh, Well,


I think that I have shots from above of the intake manifolds from that same series. I'll check, if not I can get them out of the storage facility and shoot new ones.


The Dominator (Not Yet named that yet - BTW) was technically doomed at this point, However unbeknownst to FoMoCo and Holley an insider friend of Ronnie Kaplan told him about the new carburetor and he arranged to liberate two pair out the back door and secretly developed an intake manifold for them. Not knowing that AMC had any FoMoCo showed up to the first race of the season. The SCCA tech people started to explain to the FoMoCo teams that the carburetors would not be allowed when a Ford executive noticed while passing the AMC pits that AMC also had the new monster carburetors. Originally he was quite upset that someone else had the new trick carburetors, however once he got back to their team cars and was told SCCA was not happy. He told the SCCA tech person "Anybody who wanted to get them could, go look at the AMC cars they have them.





John

[gt350shelb]

One of the odd things i have spotted is that the cougars did not run export races back then .

[propayne]

I noticed that too - but they did add the Chevy Camaro style bracing to the front corners towards the end of the season.

- Phillip

[gt350shelb]

i think by the end of the season the cars were pretty worn  structually

[gt350shelb]

old race cars modify as needed forever 

[TA Coupe]

The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

Here you go, here's mine.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eEcvBPr

       Roy

[propayne]

i think by the end of the season the cars were pretty worn  structually

Without a doubt!

[shelbydoug]

The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

Here you go, here's mine.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eEcvBPr

       Roy

On your dual dominator intake, is there a plenum or runner that connects the front and rear carbs together?

Is there a plenum under each carb or does each runner go directly to the head intake port from each individual runner like a tunnel ram intake does?

I see what appears to be a -10AN male fitting attached but is that a engine vacuum line or a crankcase breather line?


Not to change the subject but since you seem to be familiar with some of these special Ford intakes, have you ever seen a version of your intake for a 351C with a 9.2" deck height?

[JohnSlack]

The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

Here you go, here's mine.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eEcvBPr

       Roy

On your dual dominator intake, is there a plenum or runner that connects the front and rear carbs together?

The Ford Intake Manifolds never had a passage that connected to front and rear carburetors. The have been some intakes modified that have done that operation however that modification is a fail. The passages in your next question are somewhat small and are there to tune the band where the carburetors operate as Pure IR Which did not work vs. almost IR which worked better.

Is there a plenum under each carb or does each runner go directly to the head intake port from each individual runner like a tunnel ram intake does?

I'm going to post additional pictures which will cover that.

I see what appears to be a -10AN male fitting attached but is that a engine vacuum line or a crankcase breather line?

That is the crankcase breather line that would run out to a separator tank that would drain back down to a fitting on the front left side of the oil pan

Not to change the subject but since you seem to be familiar with some of these special Ford intakes, have you ever seen a version of your intake for a 351C with a 9.2" deck height?

That was not considered necessary for multiple reasons as the Dual Dominator intake didn't make it past the 1969 year. The Holley 4500 series Carburetors ran out of airflow on a 310 cubic inch Independent Runner engine at around 7,500 RPM. They simply did not flow enough for IR usage. I got this information directly in conversations with Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins. Bill had done extensive dyno testing with the Dominator in IR using the 4500 series Holley carburetors and had done testing using the even larger 4600 series Holley Dominators (Never produced past the experimental stage). I have seen dual Dominator intake manifolds that were used for drag racing with the 351C However they all have used spacer plates between the intake manifold and the heads. I have never seen or heard of a 351C intake manifold.


John 

[JohnSlack]

shelbydoug,

The first picture is of two of the Dual Dominator Intakes I previously owned. The upper intake was a real early intake that came out of the big Shelby American sale when they were closing down. That intake manifold has no coolant hose attachment spigots as the coolant was being taken out of the front of the cylinder heads. (Now you know why the 1969 BOSS 302 heads have that different flat surface on the front.) That intake has no passages under the carburetor mounting surface. From my talks with Larry Ofria who had done some experimentation with that intake with Shelby American that intake made a storm of stand off above the carburetors and did not get very far. The lower intake came from New Zealand, This intake was used with spacer plates on a 351C drag car. In order to make it work better they welded up the passages under the carburetor mounting flanges, and screwed some kind of home made adapter plate on to it.

The next two pictures show the early style intake with no passages under the carburetor flanges

The fourth picture shows the passages under the carburetor flanges on the later intake. There were different size "vent" passages tried between the upper and lower carburetor passage levels. My current intake has 3/4" passages however I have seen them with no vent and also 5/8" venting.

[shelbydoug]

Thanks for posting the pictures. Interesting stuff.

I'm aware of the 351c's running in Pro Stock with the Wieand Tunnel Rams. As I recall they all ran with add on plenums under the carbs. The volume of the plenum was important.

I can see that the inter runner "passages" were a direction in that thinking. The issue would be to fit that all under the hood of the Mustang so the height available for the manifold caused the problem.

I remember talking to Randy right after he was working on one of these setups at the track. He was so frazzled that he didn't want to talk much about them. Just a couple of generalities about the set up.

I was asking him about the fuel reverson and what was done with that. He said his solution was just to provide a "plate" over the carbs that just provided a place for the fuel droplets to accumulate and then run off the engine where it wouldn't be a hazard.

I've worked with Weber 48 ida's a lot. I know the frustration and had all to do but laugh out loud about it? In the case of the "Webers" on my Pantera the solution was putting 5" tall stacks on the car. Then the plumes would stay in the stacks.

When I had the Webers on my Shelby, they were on a Cleveland, and the stacks had to be shorter then stock in order to fit under the hood.

You can still see the marks under the hood if you look closely where the flames from the carbs when starting it cold did a job on the paint.

The Pantera does not have that issue. Lots of room over the stacks in that car.