T10 M 4 speed transmission tailshaft ?

[gt350hr]

I will probably get flogged for this but.... I have communicated with a couple of 66 owners that state that they know without a shadow of a doubt that their cars came with top loaders from new.  One was since new owner history..  so take it for what it is worth.  My personal opinion (I know its like a** holes, everyone has one), if Shelby needed a trans in order to ship cars, they left the TL in them and sent them down the road because they were having warranty issues with the M's breaking anyway and were in the business of selling cars.

      I am not going to flog you but I am going to explain how the possibility is zero.
   Mustangs built on the assembly line are very specific. In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle. All of the sub assemblies are specifically called out and are "in place" at the various assembly stations along the line. There are Youtube videos showing vehicle production. The assembly line was a fairly fast passed and holding it up or stopping it was a MAJOR problem. IF T-10s were not available , the cars would NOT be scheduled to be built until transmissions WERE "in plant". Substitution of a major component like the trans ( and attending speedo cable) couldn't happen without the DSO being changed to reflect it. Assembly stations had parts "in place" for the specific cars they were building.
Now is it possible the trans was changed after it was delivered to SAI and prior to the first sale of the vehicle? Yes , in some "special" cases we know "canibalism" did happen ( though very rare) so the owner could be right too.
    Randy

[Greg]

Thanks Randy, that makes perfect sense and I agree.  The people that "know what they know 100%" comes into play after delivery and it is very possible that before the car was sold by the dealer that a trans was pulled to satisfy a warranty requirement by a dealer.  That is probably what happened.

[gt350hr]

  It's all good Greg.  Check out some of the youtube videos and you will see the great lengths "the line" went to to streamline production. Special racks to hold pre assembled components etc. It is an eye opener and far from what people imagine happens( in a regular shop).
    Randy

[Bob Gaines]

I will probably get flogged for this but.... I have communicated with a couple of 66 owners that state that they know without a shadow of a doubt that their cars came with top loaders from new.  One was since new owner history..  so take it for what it is worth.  My personal opinion (I know its like a** holes, everyone has one), if Shelby needed a trans in order to ship cars, they left the TL in them and sent them down the road because they were having warranty issues with the M's breaking anyway and were in the business of selling cars.

      I am not going to flog you but I am going to explain how the possibility is zero.
   Mustangs built on the assembly line are very specific. In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle. All of the sub assemblies are specifically called out and are "in place" at the various assembly stations along the line. There are Youtube videos showing vehicle production. The assembly line was a fairly fast passed and holding it up or stopping it was a MAJOR problem. IF T-10s were not available , the cars would NOT be scheduled to be built until transmissions WERE "in plant". Substitution of a major component like the trans ( and attending speedo cable) couldn't happen without the DSO being changed to reflect it. Assembly stations had parts "in place" for the specific cars they were building.
Now is it possible the trans was changed after it was delivered to SAI and prior to the first sale of the vehicle? Yes , in some "special" cases we know "canibalism" did happen ( though very rare) so the owner could be right too.
    Randy

Thanks Randy, that makes perfect sense and I agree.  The people that "know what they know 100%" comes into play after delivery and it is very possible that before the car was sold by the dealer that a trans was pulled to satisfy a warranty requirement by a dealer.  That is probably what happened.

Greg,I agree with Randy it is possible but what is more likely ? This is a hard sell IMHO.  Is it more likely of some rare incident where a toploader was substituted for some unknown reason at SA or the dealer or is it more likely a past owner did the conversion? It is not like the Toploader modification is uncommon with 65/66 GT350's owners up until the relative recent change of emphasis on factory stock. Besides the breakage you have the irritating popping out of second on the T10.   I have never seen a TSB for replacing the entire T10 trans with a toploader or heard of a recall for 65/66 GT350 complete transmissions. Also It would be cheaper for Ford to replace a broken aluminum tailshaft with a cast iron one rather then a entire transmission and shifter linkage. I don't think a warranty theory is very viable given the costs and labor associated IMO . Meaning no disrespect to you but it isn't the first time we have heard of a extra ordinary part being justified as original on simple owner say so with not other hard facts. I think I remember reading someplace something about extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof  . That is if one expects other like minded people to accept the occurrence.  I am not trying to be contrary for no reason.  I don't want other enthusiasts reading to think that this is any kind of normal stock original occurrence. This type of scenario is how these urban legends start or are perpetuated . A common modification on a 65/66 Mustang or GT350 yes . A common dealer modification under warranty no. Do you want to believe the extraordinary occurrence ? That is your right . Ed Meyer believes in a southern Indiana bigfoot  . Without reasonable proof it will be hard to prove to others that BF is stealing Ed's mason jars of shine.   To each their own .Just trying to explain my point of view.

[gt350hr]

 +1 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" applies here. There was NO shortage of replacement parts THEN. As I mentioned switching to a top loader requires the trans , rods and levers, lower shifter assembly ( the stick is the same) and a different speedo cable/ gear. The toploader was ( at Ford's cost too) a more expensive transmission. SAI "stocked" T-10s so it is a stretch that they replaced the original trans for a top loader. What may or may not have happened between final conversion at SAI and"first sale" . is where the extraordinary proof line comes in.
    Randy

[J_Speegle]

   Mustangs built on the assembly line are very specific. In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle. All of the sub assemblies are specifically called out and are "in place" at the various assembly stations along the line. There are Youtube videos showing vehicle production. The assembly line was a fairly fast passed and holding it up or stopping it was a MAJOR problem. IF T-10s were not available , the cars would NOT be scheduled to be built until transmissions WERE "in plant". Substitution of a major component like the trans ( and attending speedo cable) couldn't happen without the DSO being changed to reflect it. Assembly stations had parts "in place" for the specific cars they were building.

Randy's comments match what I've been told by manages of the plants from this time period. Would like to clarify one comment so no one gets the wrong idea

"In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle."

The adding and deleting of parts and components all took place on paper. The final list is what was provided to the line to assemble the car. Didn't want anyone to think that these were completed cars where parts were removed and replaced by others as part of the assembly process 

[gt350hr]

   Thanks Jeff that is clearer for sure. The DSO sheets are more like "component part scheduling lists" in that they called out specific parts to be used at each specific location where the parts were added. These sheets used the "in plant" numbers , paint codes etc used to ID the assemblies. If twenty cars were scheduled to be assembled , twenty engines , transmissions , differentials , 40 coil springs and shocks , 40 leaf springs and shocks and so on would be loaded to the proper station so they could be added within the allotted time at each station. The station added ONLY those they were responsible for and the car moved to the next station for more additions.
     These are done for ALL assembly line vehicles. A DSO wasn't restricted to SAI vehicles , only those that used parts / paint that was not RPO ( regular production option).
   Thanks again Jeff!

[Greg]

Awesome conversation and explanation by all, thanks!

[s2ms]

+1 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" applies here. There was NO shortage of replacement parts THEN. As I mentioned switching to a top loader requires the trans , rods and levers, lower shifter assembly ( the stick is the same) and a different speedo cable/ gear. The toploader was ( at Ford's cost too) a more expensive transmission. SAI "stocked" T-10s so it is a stretch that they replaced the original trans for a top loader. What may or may not have happened between final conversion at SAI and"first sale" . is where the extraordinary proof line comes in.
    Randy

I wasn't aware the T-10 and top loader used different speedo cables. The MPC only shows one part number for 65-66 Mustang 4-speed, C5OZ-17260-A, it doesn't mention GT350.

What are the differences?

Thanks,
Dave

[NC TRACKRAT]

Dave, just a different gear, not a different cable. 
Regards,
SPE

[GT350Lad]

   Mustangs built on the assembly line are very specific. In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle. All of the sub assemblies are specifically called out and are "in place" at the various assembly stations along the line. There are Youtube videos showing vehicle production. The assembly line was a fairly fast passed and holding it up or stopping it was a MAJOR problem. IF T-10s were not available , the cars would NOT be scheduled to be built until transmissions WERE "in plant". Substitution of a major component like the trans ( and attending speedo cable) couldn't happen without the DSO being changed to reflect it. Assembly stations had parts "in place" for the specific cars they were building.

Randy's comments match what I've been told by manages of the plants from this time period. Would like to clarify one comment so no one gets the wrong idea

"In the case of SAI Mustangs , they were made to a specific DSO or Domestic Special Order. These orders added and deleted parts as needed to produce a completed vehicle."

The adding and deleting of parts and components all took place on paper. The final list is what was provided to the line to assemble the car. Didn't want anyone to think that these were completed cars where parts were removed and replaced by others as part of the assembly process 

Interesting, thanks Jeff
The Speedo gear would depend on rear end and wheels, tyres etc?
Cheers

[zray]

According to the original owner, 6s1117 was delivered to the dealer with the cast iron tailshaft. I wasn't standing there when it was offloaded so I'll just take his word for it.

Z

[CSX2259]

I would think that with the fragility of the aluminum main and tail shafts that during warranty repairs anything could have happened at the dealership level after delivery to the customer. I do not know what parts availability was like for the aluminum parts, not do I know what the cost comparison was, but I am sure that a cast iron part would have been much easier and cheaper to get than the aluminum part. The durability of the cast iron part would have also meant that the possibility of a repeat repair was less likely than the aluminum part. It would be interesting to look through those vehicles that have mixed assemblies to see if there were related repairs done. There could have also been times when there was nothing to salvage from a warranty repair and the entire transmission could have been replaced, either at the dealers discretion or the owners if they were paying for it. I would think that if the dealership said that there is a stronger alternative don't you think the owner would jump at it? In those days it wasn't so much about what is Concours correct vs what can I get that will last longer or be stronger.

[Bob Gaines]

I would think that with the fragility of the aluminum main and tail shafts that during warranty repairs anything could have happened at the dealership level after delivery to the customer. I do not know what parts availability was like for the aluminum parts, not do I know what the cost comparison was, but I am sure that a cast iron part would have been much easier and cheaper to get than the aluminum part. The durability of the cast iron part would have also meant that the possibility of a repeat repair was less likely than the aluminum part. It would be interesting to look through those vehicles that have mixed assemblies to see if there were related repairs done. There could have also been times when there was nothing to salvage from a warranty repair and the entire transmission could have been replaced, either at the dealers discretion or the owners if they were paying for it. I would think that if the dealership said that there is a stronger alternative don't you think the owner would jump at it? In those days it wasn't so much about what is Concours correct vs what can I get that will last longer or be stronger.

I was wondering when someone was going to play that card.     The anything is possible scenario is the easy out explanation when you don't have realistic proof to explain a extra ordinary occurrence IMO. Could a complete toploader have been replaced in place of a GT350 T10 by a dealer ? Certainly within the realm of possibility with the right set of circumstances . There are any number of possible scenarios but you have the less likely and the more likely given the typical solutions we have seen. 

[CSX2259]

It is documented as to what was supplied with the vehicle when delivered by Ford to SAI, those are facts. Anything else in place of or deviated from original can be interpreted as a "day 2" modification, it does not matter if a Ford dealership or an owner did it.

I was not trying to justify that if a Ford dealership installed or repaired the transmission in any other way than "as delivered" that it could be interpreted as being original.