1969 BOSS 302 GT 350 Prototype

[Coralsnake]

With regards to "shelbymann1970" I think his observations and comments were spot on. I have read the comments on the other forums to see what was said about the car and there were a lot of people attacking him and telling him to stop commenting (that's being polite) .  I didn't see anything where he attacked the owners or their motivations. He was merely trying to set the historical record straight. He nailed it 15 years ago and continued it in this thread.

You may not like the delivery, but the points that were made were accurate. The best advice I can give anyone posting is stay on the topic and never attack the person posting. I have done it and it never turns out like you think it will.

"G" car = yes
"48" car = yes
Shelby = no (per Ford Motor)

[shelbymann1970]

I think you are 100% correct the car was built and released in two days, no AO Smith visit there.

I commend the owner for adding the picture of the build sheet to the auction. It was not originally explained in the auction when the Shelby fiberglass was added.  As we say, its his car and he can do what he wants with it.

I never doubted the tags or stampings on this car based on what I have seen.

I do think the question is answered and the discussion should turn to finding a new home for the car.

I just went through the pics. I do not see a build sheet among them.

[Coralsnake]

It is picture 27/41

[68stangcjfb]

I think the Marti report tells the tale. The car was built May 6th. It was released May 8th. It was sold to the original owner as a Boss 302 June 16th. It would be physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a Boss 302 (we all know Shelby's started life as Mustangs at Dearborn, Metuchen & San Jose), shipped  to AO Smith, converted into a Shelby, shipped back to Dearborn, converted back into a Boss 302, then released to the dealer in 2 days. I'm just looking at it logically with the facts that are presented. Am I wrong?

Your going to have to explain why you think "it's physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a boss 302" - it is a boss 302 and was built at Dearborn.

The car was never turned into a shelby by A.O. Smith it never went there, it was dressed up like a shelby after it was restored by the owner at that time. The car is coded 48 which means Shelby mustang - but left Dearborn as a boss 302.

You are getting ahead of yourself. You took a partial sentence out of context from 68stangcjfb. go read the RED I noted and it makes sense just the built may6 and released May8th. To me that is the most damning evidence on it. We are all in agreement on what the car is. Unlike most of those here I had seen and gone over this car in 1984. Followed this car through subsequent owners. As a 70 Shelby owner and one who had restored numerous 69-70  Mustangs up until that point and was in the process of restoring  1970 #3052 I pretty much had a handle on what was correct on dash vins and such. I had probably up to that point  owned at least a dozen 69s.

+1

[shelbymann1970]

It is picture 27/41

Thanks. I should have REFRESHED my tab on the car. I see it now. Kudos for the seller in posting it.

[shelbymann1970]

I think the Marti report tells the tale. The car was built May 6th. It was released May 8th. It was sold to the original owner as a Boss 302 June 16th. It would be physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a Boss 302 (we all know Shelby's started life as Mustangs at Dearborn, Metuchen & San Jose), shipped  to AO Smith, converted into a Shelby, shipped back to Dearborn, converted back into a Boss 302, then released to the dealer in 2 days. I'm just looking at it logically with the facts that are presented. Am I wrong?

Your going to have to explain why you think "it's physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a boss 302" - it is a boss 302 and was built at Dearborn.

The car was never turned into a shelby by A.O. Smith it never went there, it was dressed up like a shelby after it was restored by the owner at that time. The car is coded 48 which means Shelby mustang - but left Dearborn as a boss 302.

You are getting ahead of yourself. You took a partial sentence out of context from 68stangcjfb. go read the RED I noted and it makes sense just the built may6 and released May8th. To me that is the most damning evidence on it. We are all in agreement on what the car is. Unlike most of those here I had seen and gone over this car in 1984. Followed this car through subsequent owners. As a 70 Shelby owner and one who had restored numerous 69-70  Mustangs up until that point and was in the process of restoring  1970 #3052 I pretty much had a handle on what was correct on dash vins and such. I had probably up to that point  owned at least a dozen 69s.

+1

digging deeper on release dates they have no bearing on  AO Smith dates it is just the plant date. 2244 was built 15 days late and my car was built 7 days early maybe even in line with this car but mine was built 5-6 and released 5-6 and there is no question it then headed to AO Smith  and Marti reports do not show release dates when cars were converted to Shelbys it appears. There is no sold date on my car BUT when I bought my car the current French title said initial sold date as Sept 30,1970 so maybe I should tell Kevin that for his archives.

[68stangcjfb]

Okay. So that puts a dent in my theory.  The A. O. Smith trip starts after the Ford release date. That being said, it's still only 38 days total between May 8th and June 16th between release and sale date. Add transport time to A.O. Smith and back to Dearborn and then to the dealership and it becomes a far stretch for the car to go from a Boss 302 to a Shelby and back to a Boss 302 then be sold in that amount of time. So the next logical questions would be how long did the conversion to a Shelby take at A. O. Smith. Then how long to convert it back to a Boss 302. I'm thinking Kevin Marti should be consulted about the statement on the Marti report to see if he has acual proof (is in paperwork in his files) this car became a Shelby at some point of he just assumed it was based on the 4 in the vin. Also, if this car was a prototype Boss 302 Shelby, why wasn't it treated like other prototypes like being crushed or ending up in the employee lot for sale etc. No, it was delivered to a regular dealer for sale.
Again, I have no agenda in this. To me it's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

[Coralsnake]

My understanding is Kevin's information is from Ford. There is also a record of specifically what cars AO Smith converted. They had to show accounting for each vehicle to get paid according to their contract. If you want to get "big picture" this is a part of what sank the program. You had AO Smith/Shelby/Ford involved in a three way love triangle. There were a lot of things AO Smith was not paid for in what could be considered a timely manner. Eventually, they just said, "no thank you" to the 1970 program.

Unfortunately, this car was never converted to Shelby specifications. There is no record of AO Smith charging for their work. That has been the point all along. This includes Shelby Engineering cars.

I think the owner has stated it might have been done at Kar Kraft, but there is no evidence of that and that is not what they were contracted to do.

[crossboss]

Okay. So that puts a dent in my theory.  The A. O. Smith trip starts after the Ford release date. That being said, it's still only 38 days total between May 8th and June 16th between release and sale date. Add transport time to A.O. Smith and back to Dearborn and then to the dealership and it becomes a far stretch for the car to go from a Boss 302 to a Shelby and back to a Boss 302 then be sold in that amount of time. So the next logical questions would be how long did the conversion to a Shelby take at A. O. Smith. Then how long to convert it back to a Boss 302. I'm thinking Kevin Marti should be consulted about the statement on the Marti report to see if he has acual proof (is in paperwork in his files) this car became a Shelby at some point of he just assumed it was based on the 4 in the vin. Also, if this car was a prototype Boss 302 Shelby, why wasn't it treated like other prototypes like being crushed or ending up in the employee lot for sale etc. No, it was delivered to a regular dealer for sale.
Again, I have no agenda in this. To me it's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

Simple, because the Shelby program was terminated.

[Bob Gaines]

Okay. So that puts a dent in my theory.  The A. O. Smith trip starts after the Ford release date. That being said, it's still only 38 days total between May 8th and June 16th between release and sale date. Add transport time to A.O. Smith and back to Dearborn and then to the dealership and it becomes a far stretch for the car to go from a Boss 302 to a Shelby and back to a Boss 302 then be sold in that amount of time. So the next logical questions would be how long did the conversion to a Shelby take at A. O. Smith. Then how long to convert it back to a Boss 302. I'm thinking Kevin Marti should be consulted about the statement on the Marti report to see if he has acual proof (is in paperwork in his files) this car became a Shelby at some point of he just assumed it was based on the 4 in the vin. Also, if this car was a prototype Boss 302 Shelby, why wasn't it treated like other prototypes like being crushed or ending up in the employee lot for sale etc. No, it was delivered to a regular dealer for sale.
Again, I have no agenda in this. To me it's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

I think some of the common belief about prototype or engineering cars connected with Shelby being crushed has been disproved in the last ten years or so with a number of cars thought crushed being re discovered. Other non Shelby cars like the quarter horse two cars come to mind. I may be wrong but I think at least some of those also were delivered to Ford dealers at least on paper and maybe not physically before being sold to the public. When I bought the car back in the day from my friend George the story was that the car was put together hastily so it could be sold on a employee lot. Right or wrong that was the story then. FYI the car was extremely rusty and after the unibody came back from Redi Strip in Evansville with all of the rust gone it looked like Swiss cheese.  The condition it came back to me in and all of the sheet metal that needed to be replaced everywhere (Michigan salt most likely) was why I sold it. The Ford assemblyline factory punched hole in the firewall I observed for the Shelby foglight harness supports the story that it was intended to be finished as a Shelby but given other evidence was never converted. I didn't agree with Billy Jay's poetic licenses restoring it as a 70 because it would be unique looking enough if restored to 69 Shelby trim which is what I wanted to do. It was his car so his prerogative. Regardless it looks excellent now and from what I have seen excellent workmanship bringing it to its current condition. I wish him well on the sale of the car.

[Coralsnake]

Well said, people don't have to agree with the decisions that were made. Its very helpful to know who made them and when they were made.

[427hunter]

Straw man arguments and talking in circles that's what this has become.

It is a G48 - it left Dearborn as a boss 302 coded on the vin to be a Shelby, that is the story.

This is for the prime instigator "Shelbyman":

Who said it was built as a Selby?

Who said it went to A.O. Smith?

Are you saying the vin numbers and body stamps are fake?

What are you trying to accomplish?

[Grumpy]

I am somewhat interested in the car. Had a new 70 Mach1 in that color . It does look nice now. I'd just use it as a summer car. What do you guys think it's worth realistically? just as a Boss 302 prototype ? 

[Special Ed]

 I just talked to george H who bought it from gary b back in early 90s after i looked at it  and he has a file on the car from when he bought it that should help.

[JohnSlack]

I think that the end statement that is the one that will resonate loudest is that on December 17,2023 with four days left in the auction there are still zero bids. The starting point is $350,000.00.

So not a lot of people willing at this point to jump into the pool.

The car is a really interesting, cool looking, conversation piece. It has had a lot of high end atta-boys but is still not generating the fiscal interest in the deep end of the pool.

As a car I like it, at that price point, I don't.


John