fuel issue

[kasearch@ix.netcom.com]

I like to run 93 non ethanol in all my cars.  My problem is not only finding it, but finding it close by.  I have found a distributor 60 miles from me, but at 8-12 miles per gallon, to drive there and home would use up a big portion of the fuel. I have thought of a 55 gallon drum, or lots of 5 gallon cans, putting in a fuel tank, etc.  Has anyone else encountered this and come up with a workable solution?  And FYI, I have 12 cars that I need this fuel for.

[Bob Gaines]

I like to run 93 non ethanol in all my cars.  My problem is not only finding it, but finding it close by.  I have found a distributor 60 miles from me, but at 8-12 miles per gallon, to drive there and home would use up a big portion of the fuel. I have thought of a 55 gallon drum, or lots of 5 gallon cans, putting in a fuel tank, etc.  Has anyone else encountered this and come up with a workable solution?  And FYI, I have 12 cars that I need this fuel for.

The workable solution for me at least for my Shelby collection is easier to find lower octane non ethanol fuel + Octane Supreme to raise the octane. http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/OctaneSupreme01.htm   . FYI definitely wear gloves and maybe a respirator when mixing this stuff because it is strong stuff. Good luck finding a solution for your everyday driver cars.

[Rickmustang]

VP sells 55 gallon drums of Vintage, 96 octane, very stable, both leaded and unleaded. I use a cheap plastic drum hand pump.

[rkm]

Gentlemen, this is a huge issue and it has just become apparent to people in Canada.  Last July, the federal government started adding 10% ethanol to all fuel sold at gas stations. From personal experience, I can tell you that ethanol destroys Stewart, Warner fuel pump diaphragms and it's probably gonna make our carburetors leak and cause fuel fires in the engine compartments of our cars. The alternative is to either use race gas which is illegal or take the ethanol out of the pump gas, resulting in very low quality, low octane gasoline unless you add a fuel additive, or don't drive your car. All of this is being done because of the massive impact we are supposedly having on global warming by driving our old cars on the weekends. Another alternative is too find a source for high octane, non-ethanol, gas and store it in your garage or trailer
, which is a significant risk. I've not been able to come up with a great solution.  Maybe somebody else has
.  It's also no good for my motorcycles, two stroke, lawnmower, weed whacker, etc. The real solution is to make available gas for hobby cars.

[shelbydoug]

We have been running on unleaded 92 octane with 10% ethanol in New York State since about 1975.

There are few issues with it. Not many.

1) The advertised compression ratios shown by Ford mean little. In virtually all instances the actual measure static compression ratio is just about .5 point less.

That puts engines like the 289 at about 9.6:1 or so. Engines with actual static compression ratios in that range with non-domed pistons run fine on 92 unleaded. You just need to stay under 10:1 actual. That is the limit of the compressibility of 92.

During the first "gas shortage" here, "we" found that the 306hp Shelby version would run ok on "regular" which was posted at 89 octane.


Engines that were having issues even on 92 were engines with domed pistons like the Boss 302, Boss 351, 427 MR, and Boss 429.

2) Ethanol reacting negatively with the "rubber" components in the fuel system is largely over rated. Original Ford hoses and components in the system have/had no issues with it AT ALL. Aftermarket hose in the auto stores, that could be another story AT THE TIME but these days aftermarket hose marked "FUEL" is made to use with ethanol.
Fuel Pump diaphrams do not have any issues with 10% ethanol. You won't have issues with ethanol until you get to around a 25% level and there isn't anywhere in North America where companies sell that in the pump.

3) The ONLY issue that I have experienced with unleaded Ethanol fuel in the last 49 years is that the Holley carb VITON inlet valves tend to stick CLOSED after the engine has been sitting dormant for around 30 days.
The carbs like it better if you set the floats a little lower then Holley instructs. This isn't usually an issue on the primary bowls but the secondaries are a little bit of a PITA because by design there is less float travel in the secondaries.
Those admittedly I do struggle with to get just right.


There are those who feel that the engines run better on the equivalent of 106 leaded racing gas or even 103 leaded but that fuel contains so much lead that it introduces other negatives to the fuel system and even the exhaust system.

You can argue that it is what the engines were designed to run on but the reality is that the current blend of 92 with ethanol supports all of them.

Each of us will obviously take our own road but my view is that if you intend to drive the car at all besides just around the block, you need to make the adjustments to what you can buy in any "gas station" out on the open road and it isn't a difficult adjustment and paranoia is not your friend in any respect.

I got over this issue 49 years ago. If I can. Anyone can.

The paranoia is a demon that you are fighting unnecessarily and it is largely imaginary.

[gt350shelb]

I will agree with most of the above comment......with the exception of the ethonol versis rubber parts ..... and brass fyi.

I have removed hoses from my car that externally looked fine  but were crumbling inside . and those little bits of rubber  hold open those needle and seats on  the holley carb .fyi

and those cheap correct stamped hoses are usually made from  the cheapest supplier .

I replace all hoses before any event every year .

The junction hose on the 68 between the front and rear fuel line swelled  so much in storage that the line pushed off the spring clamps and emptied the full fuel tank .

The other fun thing with  ethanol fuel s that it is conductive .

And causes galvanic corrosion  issues with fuel level floats and needle and seats .

There is a reason all new cars have stainless fuel lines and plastic fuel tanks .

I have not had any issues with old original fuel tanks ....but the cheap replacement ( non galvanised on the inside tanks.... will barely last a year . before they rust and clog the entire fuel system.

In my opinion this is why there are so many vintage car fires under the hood . those hoses between the carb are just waiting to soak that distributor cap!

These issues were seen on a private collection i maintained and cars {over 100) were from 1910> to present day  . we kept race fuel in most of them . or stored them empty for long terms.  most of cars were driven every 30 days .

[shelbydoug]

First off, I am not arguing, just saying what I have experienced personally.

I bought my '68 GT350 on April 4, 1972.

Unleaded ethanol has been around since about 1975 which I have always used.
The only advantage that I found to using SUNOCO Racing gas, if it is an advantage, is that the car will immediately idle down from 800 something to 700 something.

I do not like the white lead deposits it leaves on the plugs and the valves or on the observable portions of the exhaust system.


My experiences with the original gas tanks is that they need to be kept as full as you can get them for storage, not the opposite.



Most of my 68 GT350 has used "Aeroquip hose" since around that time and 304 ss hard tubing where applicable so that might be a factor in the results with those components?

About the only original fuel hose that I can think of that is still on the car right now is from the fuel pick up to the metal fuel line outside of the tank. It is still original. Has been off of the car and examined and still un-cracked or showing signs of interior deterioration.

What you have experienced and that you share with others is appreciated and I note it. I can't deny your experience.



The carb valves show no evidence of foreign materials on them. They just show a mark where the rubber meets the metal ring of the seat.

I have also had issues with failed power valves but that isn't a recent thing. It is an on going phenomena. That goes way back to my start... and yes I do use the check valves installed in the throttle plates even when not original to the carbs.

I invested in a Moroso "power valve" check tool and my initial experiment of 12 brand new, "still in the bubble wrapper packaging" showed 50%, yes half, had vacuum leaks brand new, so really what needs to be factored into that equation is the quality level of the original part or the lack of quality in the original SERVICE  parts?


One probably does need to take into account my location though. There are places on the Earth where the compass does not work. In one case it is called the South Seas Anomaly. Who is to say there isn't another location where the normal laws of physics do not apply and right here in the NYC area could be one of them? After all,  to some, I defy ANY sensible logic? 



On other vehicles here, everyday use cars, many of the "rubber" fuel lines have been replaced. There are no "factory original part numbers" on them and are largely NAPA parts. So far, so good...knock on wood, but simply put, I have not experienced any of the side effects others are describing in over 49 years, so color me cautious but respectful of others more experienced then I am.

With these "bumps of knowledge" on my head and if one is truly wiser by making mistakes and learning from them, I should be, but am not, in the "genius" class by now and still the general consensus is that I am just the "Village Idiot" and we just "humor Doug"?  That's actually ok with me since I long ago learned to accept that and at least get invited to the barque afterwards.. .even though?

After all, I am 75 now and don't look my age. I only look 74 so it confuses people because I still use words that are no longer in the vernacular, but I still remember them AND so far only one person has threatened me with a gun and he was just a medical doctor so that is likely understandable anyway by his own piers?

[warwick]

Here is an example of what I believe was called by ethanol fuel. I have two vintage BMW motorcycles that I restored. I was riding them a fair amount using pump (ethanol added) regular fuel-they are post war and run a low compression. They are both two carb bikes. One year (around 2018) one carb started leaking-I fixed it. Two years later  the other one had a carb leaking. Both leaked at the bottom of fuel bowl-see pic. The inside of fuel bowl was eroded.

The other pic is after I fixed it - I am just showing off.

I have had fuel lines dissolve-but they were cheap lines on a tractor.

I run Sunoco leaded race fuel now - I can get it real close in cans or pump. Pricey but nice. I am finishing up on one om cars now  and will make the switch to Sunoco Race Fuel.

[warwick]

Here is pic of hole in carb.

[shelbydoug]

Again, I'm not arguing. We each have had out own experiences. Some possibly are just unique.

I have been running unleaded with 10% ethanol for about 49 years and have never had any of these corrosion issues that some are describing.

As GT350Shelb I think correctly points out, the initial quality of the part exposed to the ethanol is a factor.

Corrosion caused by higher levels of ethanol in the gas has been documented, no question but I just don't see it at the 10% level. I actually do not know if the actual formula for the fuel is varying according to the location and thus the refinery that makes it but that is just a remote thought that is only a remote possibility?

I'm sorry for your troubles and hope that you can find a solution that is workable for you.

[deathsled]

Again, I'm not arguing. We each have had out own experiences. Some possibly are just unique.

I have been running unleaded with 10% ethanol for about 49 years and have never had any of these corrosion issues that some are describing.

As GT350Shelb I think correctly points out, the initial quality of the part exposed to the ethanol is a factor.

Corrosion caused by higher levels of ethanol in the gas has been documented, no question but I just don't see it at the 10% level. I actually do not know if the actual formula for the fuel is varying according to the location and thus the refinery that makes it but that is just a remote thought that is only a remote possibility?

I'm sorry for your troubles and hope that you can find a solution that is workable for you.

What is a power valve check tool and is that the same as a vacuum gauge?  I have a Holley 650 double pumper on a 302 roller rocker engine.  Do I have anything to worry about?  I installed the aforesaid carb about good ten years ago.  Should I pull it and dissect to look for problems?  I probably should practice on a spare Holley I have sitting around.  The Hertz does not get driven in the winter but is started about every 30 days.

Addendum:  Found the power valve tester.  It sure isn't a vacuum gauge.  I have no idea how it works.  But I will.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-62295?seid=srese1&ppckw=pmax-tools&gclid=CjwKCAjw17qvBhBrEiwA1rU9w762AcWJ7l8W_OODSScGRCHFMTeRZu2lj6ddalOiHqtTC9yj0xnQTBoCChcQAvD_BwE

[shelbydoug]

In some circles, Holley power valves have developed the reputation for being fragile.

What happens is that in the case of a backfire, the carbs vacuum chamber is instantly positively (+) pressurize and works the diaphram in reverse to what it is supposed to do.

This could be a common abnormality caused by the choke being too lean in cold temps. Cars that don't get used often in winter driving may never have had the choke adjusted right and having a manual choke can be a little bit of a challenge in sub zero temps too.

This can over stress the diaphragm and cause an "air" leak. Once ruptured or cracked, when the engine is running normally, fuel will leak through the diaphram and into the intake manifold.
How much it leaks fuel depends on how bad the leak is.

Normally there will be symptoms of this that illuminate themselves in the engine running very rich at idle suddenly. If you do not have those symptoms, it is very unlikely that the power valve is defective, so leave it alone.


I think that the change in dependability of the power valves is likely the change in the contractors or suppliers that build them for Holley. It isn't something that anyone talked about having issues with in the '60s that I recall and Holley didn't start to install anti-backfire valves in their carbs until somewhere in the late '70s.

One could argue that addition is in essence a default acknowledgement of an issue that needed to be addressed I think rather convincingly.


That Moroso tool is something that is very usefull to someone who disassembles and reassembles Holley carbs more then once in a while since they would want to be 100% certain there were no component issues.

It doesn't exist to create paranoia.


Personally I just ran into a bad cycle of something like a 50% "bad out of the package" situation and for my own peace of mind wanted reassurance that the new valves were ok. So I bought it.

Used in conjunction with a vacuum pump it lets you verify the opening point of the power valve as well.

For me it is a valuable tool.

[warwick]

It is about the quality of the part: the metallurgy, the rubber compound etc,  but how do we know unless we try them (unless we test - if we have tool; like you did w/power valves). Some carb parts may be from storage and not updated. GM/AC Delco sells special fuel line for ethanol. I haven't had probs (that I know of yet) with my Mustang K code or my 427- I ran unleaded in both for a long time. I haven't had Holley or Autolite 4100 carb probs. The probs I had with my 50+ yr old BMW MCs showed up when they sat over the winter -when I ran regular unleaded through them and drove them I think I was better off.

BTW aren't they selling 15% ethanol now.

[deathsled]

In some circles, Holley power valves have developed the reputation for being fragile.

What happens is that in the case of a backfire, the carbs vacuum chamber is instantly positively (+) pressurize and works the diaphram in reverse to what it is supposed to do.

This could be a common abnormality caused by the choke being too lean in cold temps. Cars that don't get used often in winter driving may never have had the choke adjusted right and having a manual choke can be a little bit of a challenge in sub zero temps too.

This can over stress the diaphragm and cause an "air" leak. Once ruptured or cracked, when the engine is running normally, fuel will leak through the diaphram and into the intake manifold.
How much it leaks fuel depends on how bad the leak is.

Normally there will be symptoms of this that illuminate themselves in the engine running very rich at idle suddenly. If you do not have those symptoms, it is very unlikely that the power valve is defective, so leave it alone.


I think that the change in dependability of the power valves is likely the change in the contractors or suppliers that build them for Holley. It isn't something that anyone talked about having issues with in the '60s that I recall and Holley didn't start to install anti-backfire valves in their carbs until somewhere in the late '70s.

One could argue that addition is in essence a default acknowledgement of an issue that needed to be addressed I think rather convincingly.


That Moroso tool is something that is very usefull to someone who disassembles and reassembles Holley carbs more then once in a while since they would want to be 100% certain there were no component issues.

It doesn't exist to create paranoia.


Personally I just ran into a bad cycle of something like a 50% "bad out of the package" situation and for my own peace of mind wanted reassurance that the new valves were ok. So I bought it.

Used in conjunction with a vacuum pump it lets you verify the opening point of the power valve as well.

For me it is a valuable tool.

Interesting dissertation Doug.  Thank you!

[Drew Pojedinec]

Weird. I agree with Doug in regards to etoh.

The one thing I will make mention, the sticky white residue must be from something else.
My reason for thinking such:
I get carbs from all over the country. Certain areas seem prone to the residue that holds needles closed. Many areas (my own included) do not have that issue.

Etoh has become an easy thing to blame when folks don't truly know what the real problem is.


As far as 50% of all PV being bad?
I have not encountered that at all, I would suggest making sure your tester isn't the culprit. (Handheld vac pumps can often randomly bleed off)
I will say that probably more than 50% open at a different than rated point.