Dual pulley on an early 428

[pmustang]

Looking for expert advice on how to add a dual crank pulley to this setup

I deal with a bunch of small block and 390 cars every year

Not run into this before. C scratch 428

What I am dealing with is  said to be a 61-67 FE balancer/pulley setup

The engine is in my personal 68FB

I  having Borgeson Installed and need a dual pulley on the crank pulley.

I have plenty of three bolt single/dual and triple pulleys

But I am told the cast one is the one I need

But others have said I can add a 3 bolt like those found on a small block

Can anyone shed any light on this?

1st two photos are my engines balancer and single I'll do

Third is what someone recommended

Forth is what someone else
recommended

Thank you.

Peter

[Bob Gaines]

Looking for expert advice on how to add a dual crank pulley to this setup

I deal with a bunch of small block and 390 cars every year

Not run into this before. C scratch 428

What I am dealing with is  said to be a 61-67 FE balancer/pulley setup

The engine is in my personal 68FB

I  having Borgeson Installed and need a dual pulley on the crank pulley.

I have plenty of three bolt single/dual and triple pulleys

But I am told the cast one is the one I need

But others have said I can add a 3 bolt like those found on a small block

Can anyone shed any light on this?

1st two photos are my engines balancer and single I'll do

Third is what someone recommended

Forth is what someone else
recommended

Thank you.

Peter

Has this engine been running and does it have vibration at any given speed? Not a expert but my observation is that it looks like a SCJ hatchet head counter weight sleeve from the picture and early 390 crank balancer /pulley.  If it is then it is a frankenstein set up with components that were never used together let alone in a 68 FB. I would typically advise use a 68 up 390/ balancer 428 then you have all kinds of crank pulley choices but then again I don't know how this engine is balanced given the counterweight . Without that knowledge one can only guess. You may be locked into using the single or double cast iron accessory pulley.   

[pmustang]

Hello Bob

Thank you for taking the time to help me out

Car is a 68 C code fastback that had this motor swapped in.

I bought the car several years ago and brought it to the UK

Engine is a C scratch block. (Saw when installing a different trans)

Engine has been running and zero vibration. The car runs like a scalded car

Forgive me for my naïveté on the matter. But if the existing balancer/pulley is taken off. Is it a normal crank snout or is the hatchet weight assembly integral?

I've had many of these cars. But predominantly small blocks so have no experience with the hatchet weight setup

Trying to find out what would lock me into using the cast iron extra pulley as opposed to the later
68 style balancer and bolt on pulley

Thank you. Peter

[pmustang]

Just went to view the car again

Definitely no room for a normal balancer

Looks like a cast pulley would be needed

Now to find one

[Bob Gaines]

Hello Bob

Thank you for taking the time to help me out

Car is a 68 C code fastback that had this motor swapped in.

I bought the car several years ago and brought it to the UK

Engine is a C scratch block. (Saw when installing a different trans)

Engine has been running and zero vibration. The car runs like a scalded car

Forgive me for my naïveté on the matter. But if the existing balancer/pulley is taken off. Is it a normal crank snout or is the hatchet weight assembly integral?

I've had many of these cars. But predominantly small blocks so have no experience with the hatchet weight setup

Trying to find out what would lock me into using the cast iron extra pulley as opposed to the later
68 style balancer and bolt on pulley

Thank you. Peter

Radical balance changes is what might lock you in . From the information so far it is not clear how this engine is balanced.  The sleeve with the hatchet head is the same as the typical BB one but without the hatchet and it slides off in the same way. The hatchet detail is a counterweight to help the factory to even out the balance in a nominal way for heavier rods on a assemblyline 428 Super Cobra Jet along with a different balance flywheel and larger diameter harmonic balancer. Why it is used here is a mystery to me but its use in this case suggests a interesting balance situation inside that may cause a issue if balancer things are changed.  The engine should have the same clearance with the radiator regardless  unless the engine has been moved forward maybe with motor mounts reversed or something. My concern is that with this Frankenstein setup that changing to what would be typical would make things worse not better . Yes I think all things considered to make it work with odd ball pullies may be the least aggravating solution.

[pbf777]

      Although the standard 390/428, that which is perhaps appropriate for the '68 mustang chassis application and should fit, but is of a greater mass, it still, like the one pictured which is of an earlier application intention, is of a "neutral" balance configuration an therefore swapping one for the other will not change the "balance" of the revolving assembly.   The greater mass, particularly that which is located on the inertia ring, is part of the "tuning" of the damper's torsional harmonic dampening effect by the manufacturer, but does not really have any function in the endeavor of "balance" in this case.     

       And yes, I would probably attempt to utilize the "correct" later style (bigger) damper as this will present increased options for success in acquiring pulleys of the compatible sheave count, diameters and offsets.  Though we also are not sure that the current water pump pulley, fan spacer, or cooling fan are "correct" or present acceptable placements with compatibility for..............

       As far as for the "cookie-cutter" type seal sleeve/spacer as currently mounted on the crank snout behind the damper assy., I would leave it in place as one will just have to "assume" that it was accounted for in any previous balancing intention.    

       Scott.

     

[pmustang]

Thank you Bob

I have had what you said earlier confirmed by another person about the Balancer on my car being an Early 390 unit

I spoke to the mechanic this morning and he did say the engine, although strong as an ox does have a light vibration at higher rpms. Not so much that is feels there is something massively wrong but its definitely there and definitely in the engine.

So your thoughts are that it may cause further issues if I was to source and install a correct SCJ balancer on the engine?

Thank you once again. peter

[pmustang]

Thank you Scott

I get what you are saying, by changing the damper then other alignment issues may present themselves. As the car has no air or power steering then my alignment issues would potentially be smaller in comparison to a fully loaded up engine belt system.

If I understand you correctly: Your feelings are that by buying the correct 428SCJ balancer which is a larger unit then what I have that there won't be, or shouldn't be any issues due to my current and the possible new SCJ correct one being neutral balance. So they won't, in theory affect the current balance of the rotating assembly.

thanks for your assistance.

[pmustang]

This sure looks like my current balancer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233994327623?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=233994327623&targetid=1405537545258&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045051&poi=&campaignid=17218284410&mkgroupid=142217514411&rlsatarget=pla-1405537545258&abcId=9300867&merchantid=426103394&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPm4iP5xHfNI4_Ir87kBKi0slrreOAzmU2Oia3yZQ7NFYnfoq22fvMaArJwEALw_wcB

[pbf777]

So they won't, in theory affect the current balance of the rotating assembly.

     Correct.   

     Scott.

[Bob Gaines]

This sure looks like my current balancer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233994327623?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=233994327623&targetid=1405537545258&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045051&poi=&campaignid=17218284410&mkgroupid=142217514411&rlsatarget=pla-1405537545258&abcId=9300867&merchantid=426103394&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPm4iP5xHfNI4_Ir87kBKi0slrreOAzmU2Oia3yZQ7NFYnfoq22fvMaArJwEALw_wcB

C4AE casting indicates that it is the early casting .Not a big surprise that a Ebay description is wrong.  Regardless, does it make a difference if it is like yours or not ? Cobra automotive makes a repro of the 428 SCJ balancer if you want to spend the money and take the chance it will cause more vibration. It seems like it will be less money and at the least a better chance of less problems with ether the single or double cast iron accessory pulley added to your current one to line up with your water pump and alternator pulley.

[shelbydoug]

I was told by someone I consider an authority on FE's that FE's wound up with a "harmonics situation", i.e., a vibration. All of them.

The only way he knew to reduce it is to use a heavier balancer. What you are doing by adding reciprocating mass is not re balancing the engine but moving the vibration to another rpm range or some would describe it as "dampening" it in the usable rpm range of the engine.

I believe that essentially was said by Scott, not in the exact wording but in describing the effect?


I have seen this effect on other Ford engines as well. You can more then notice the added mass on the 289hp, Boss 302, the Boss351c and the 427's.

One thing that I noticed was on my 351c. When I added the '72 351HO balancer v. the 4v balancer, it seemed to calm the idle down as if I had taken some of the duration out of the camshaft timing.


I think that you can actually use the 427MR balancer in your application also. The 427's are neutral balance through the complete engine. I think the 390's are also but it depends on which crankshaft you used if you built a stroker using Ford parts?

The 428's are neutral balanced in the front half and Detroit balanced in the rear half. I don't know how that works but it means that any FE balancer will work on any FE since they are all neutral balanced on the nose. The flywheel is a different story and needs to match the Ford crankshaft used.

Aftermarket, non-Ford crankshaft manufacturers will advise you what to use with theirs.

I would go with the heaviest balancer that I could get in there, like the "427" on my '67 GT500 428. It can't hurt the engine. Cobra Automotive has those also.

[pmustang]

Thank you everyone

Very helpful posts

Now to make a decision and order some bits for when I come back to the states in June

Thank you. Peter

[pmustang]

Hello Folks,

As you kindly gave me advice I will keep you informed of my decision (right or wrong) and the outcome after install

So I went with a new 68 and later balancer and pulley.

I will have those installed and see where we are then. Of course I will report back

Thanks again

[pmustang]

Further down the rabbit hole

Car hasn't been started since these parts were installed