1965 9" Third Member Unique?

[cboss70]

I have a real 65 9" but at some time during its history the center section was replaced by one from what looks like one from the 70's.  If I want to put something in there with at least 65 date casting info on it is there any identifiers I can look for to tell if something is a true 1965 Shelby/k-code center section? Alternatively, can I just put in one with the right year from any model car like a galaxy etc. if I just want to have the outward appearance of correctness?  What's in there works and I have the snubber bracket but would like it more if I had at least a date coded center section for 1965 so I'm contemplating my options.

[cboss70]

So, no-one has any knowledge about the unique characteristics of the 65 center sections?   Do the Shelbys/k-codes have a unique yoke versus a center from a 9" rear from some other 65 ford model or can I find any center section with dates I want and it will "look" the same and bolt tight in? Any unique differences I could see visually? I would love to arm myself with as much knowledge as I can before attending some of the fall swap meets and doing internet searches just seems to provide conflicting information.  Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom. 

On a side note, I did find a picture showing the differences between the 65 and 66 snubber brackets which was helpful but that alone doesn't always help as people often sell the centers without that bracket.

[68stangcjfb]

From the cases I have seen there seems to be no difference in a case that came out of a Shelby, a Fairlane, a Mustang or a Galaxy or a Thunderbird. Just find one with an appropriate date for your car. Of course these housings are kind of like starter delays on 68 and 1/2 KRS. All 1968 Ford and Mercury's with 428 and 429 engines built after March 1st 1968 came with them but because they were used in KR Shelby's they bring a premium price. Others may have more knowledge than me though.

[CharlesTurner]

Couple pics of an original:

[cboss70]

Thanks everyone. Sounds like the center section is standard 65 9" issue across bodies/models and the yoke is also the same across them so nothing unique was added to the Shelby except the snubber bracket. I'll decide on a date range and hit the swaps this fall for a complete one.  Thanks again!

Just thinking, the one variable left the axles- was the Shelby center section the only one that used 28 spline or were there others (in other words I'm wondering if I'll probably only find a 31 spline because 28 is rare and unique to K-codes and Shelbys and that I'll have to swap the guts out).

[68stangcjfb]

I believe all 65 and 66 Shelby's ran 28 spline axles. That is why they use the standard case instead of the nodular iron case that has the square cast into it that the 31 spline axle cars like 427 full size Fords and Mercury's used. I'm not sure if R models or other race cars used the nodular case and larger axles but it would make sense that they did to keep breakage at a minimum.

[Bob Gaines]

I believe all 65 and 66 Shelby's ran 28 spline axles. That is why they use the standard case instead of the nodular iron case that has the square cast into it that the 31 spline axle cars like 427 full size Fords and Mercury's used. I'm not sure if R models or other race cars used the nodular case and larger axles but it would make sense that they did to keep breakage at a minimum.

Back in the day the 65/6 competition models didn't use 31 spline axles.

[430dragpack]

A C4AW casting is a nodular case. The N was added at sometime in the 1968 time frame.

There are other C4AW cases, like the C4AW-4025-C which is a single rib, large side bearing case, indicated by the "O" on the inside, which is not a nodular case.  This one is dated 4J21 and would be dated correctly for a 1965 Mustang.  A 289 HIPO Mustang would've used the C4AW-4025-A, small side bearing version of this case, in '65-'66 maybe later.  It would have an "X" cast on the inside indicating the small side bearings.  Of course the large bearing case pictured below would work just fine and look the part in a Shelby, but a person would have to use a large bearing carrier.  Notice no fill plug or even cast area for a fill plug.  Some were cast for a fill plug but not tapped out.
On a different side note, The "N" did not appear on the double rib Nodular cases until late October/real early November of 1968.

[pbf777]

    Just to be clear, not all "C4AW" castings are of the as referenced "Nodular" variety.   

    As I recall, there is the C4AW-4025-A and the C4AW-4025-C both of which I have witnessed being claimed as appropriate for '64,'65 & 66 "standard" 9" application vehicles; though probably the "A" unit might have been discontinued somewhere as of '65, with the "C" unit being discontinued and replaced by the C7AW-4025-E unit for '67 or there about. All of these are of the "single" vertical rib style castings and not being of the so-called "nodular" material makeup. 

    As for the cases that are of the nodular material, and which earlier examples do not exhibit the "N" (externally), these are the C4AW-4025-B units, of which I don't believe are applicable to the GT350's if originality is the intention. 

    Scott.

[430dragpack]

So, no-one has any knowledge about the unique characteristics of the 65 center sections?   Do the Shelbys/k-codes have a unique yoke versus a center from a 9" rear from some other 65 ford model or can I find any center section with dates I want and it will "look" the same and bolt tight in? Any unique differences I could see visually? I would love to arm myself with as much knowledge as I can before attending some of the fall swap meets and doing internet searches just seems to provide conflicting information.  Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom. 

On a side note, I did find a picture showing the differences between the 65 and 66 snubber brackets which was helpful but that alone doesn't always help as people often sell the centers without that bracket.

The yoke on the left is what a '65-'66 Shelby used, but not just limited to them.  1310 sized u-joint, roughly 5-1/8" overall height, non-Daytona pinion bearing style.

[430dragpack]

Here is pictures of a C4AW-4025-A, small bearing single rib case, dated 6J1. Notice the small bearing indicator "X", and no fill plug or fill plug provision casting.

[430dragpack]

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

[Bob Gaines]

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

Not that it matters that much but since you seem to want to belabor the point ,there have been discussions before on AND off of any forums that ended up with the consensus of opinion which includes some of the SA mechanics that the 31 spline usage on the competition cars was something that evolved over time after 1966 racing season. The 31 spline axles would have been added after the fact to a given car . In the case of a 65/66 privateer competition car, the cars did not come from Ford or Shelby with 31 spline axles when delivered new.   

[Bob Gaines]

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

Not that it matters that much but since you seem to want to belabor the point ,there have been discussions before on AND off of any forums that ended up with the consensus of opinion which includes some of the SA mechanics that the 31 spline usage on the competition cars was something that evolved over time after 1966 racing season. The 31 spline axles would have been added after the fact to a given car . In the case of a 65/66 privateer competition car, the cars did not come from Ford or Shelby with 31 spline axles when delivered new. 

Sorry to offend you Bob. it is not my intent to belabor anything. I thought that I was taking part in an interesting discussion.

In the future I will try to remember asking your permission.

It is obvious that you feel that you have a superior view point and obviously you don't mind emphasizing that?

I didn't realize that you were in so tight with the factory mechanics? My apologies for not recognizing that/

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

Not that it matters that much but since you seem to want to belabor the point ,there have been discussions before on AND off of any forums that ended up with the consensus of opinion which includes some of the SA mechanics that the 31 spline usage on the competition cars was something that evolved over time after 1966 racing season. The 31 spline axles would have been added after the fact to a given car . In the case of a 65/66 privateer competition car, the cars did not come from Ford or Shelby with 31 spline axles when delivered new. 

Sorry to offend you Bob. it is not my intent to belabor anything. I thought that I was taking part in an interesting discussion.

In the future I will try to remember asking your permission.

It is obvious that you feel that you have a superior view point and obviously you don't mind emphasizing that?

I didn't realize that you were in so tight with the factory mechanics? My apologies for not recognizing that/

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

Not that it matters that much but since you seem to want to belabor the point ,there have been discussions before on AND off of any forums that ended up with the consensus of opinion which includes some of the SA mechanics that the 31 spline usage on the competition cars was something that evolved over time after 1966 racing season. The 31 spline axles would have been added after the fact to a given car . In the case of a 65/66 privateer competition car, the cars did not come from Ford or Shelby with 31 spline axles when delivered new. 

Sorry to offend you Bob. it is not my intent to belabor anything. I thought that I was taking part in an interesting discussion.

In the future I will try to remember asking your permission.

It is obvious that you feel that you have a superior view point and obviously you don't mind emphasizing that?

I didn't realize that you were in so tight with the factory mechanics? My apologies for not recognizing that/

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

OK. Now I've seen one. Thanks.

Two... I posted the pictures of the C4AW-C case I have above as well!

I haven't seen any in quite a while. I sold the last of my housings about 5 years ago. I see more N housings come up then anything now.

I remember a thread/discussion 30 or 35 years ago vaguely about R model housings and axles.
Even then there was no agreement on what was original and not.

28 v 31 spline axles were part of it and because of the nature of the beast, no one really knew how the car was delivered new.

Sounds similar to this?

Not that it matters that much but since you seem to want to belabor the point ,there have been discussions before on AND off of any forums that ended up with the consensus of opinion which includes some of the SA mechanics that the 31 spline usage on the competition cars was something that evolved over time after 1966 racing season. The 31 spline axles would have been added after the fact to a given car . In the case of a 65/66 privateer competition car, the cars did not come from Ford or Shelby with 31 spline axles when delivered new. 

Sorry to offend you Bob. it is not my intent to belabor anything. I thought that I was taking part in an interesting discussion.

In the future I will try to remember asking your permission.

It is obvious that you feel that you have a superior view point and obviously you don't mind emphasizing that?

I didn't realize that you were in so tight with the factory mechanics? My apologies for not recognizing that/

Doug I wasn't offended just annoyed that you dismissed or overlooked my previous post. I am not saying I have all of the answers because I don't. I think that you know far more about 67-70 then you do about 65/66. I think that I can help with that and will when ever I can. As far as the sarcasm of asking for permission, and not recognizing about being tight with factory mechanics -sticks and stones.   Yes I have been around quite a few of those and others in my over 50 years journey with Shelby's that I started back in 1970. I might not have participated in a large part when in the huddle with some of those giants of the Shelby Marque but It didn't stop me from listening and absorbing what they had to say.    If you choose to ignore my comments then that is on you.     

[Scode67FB]

I'm sure there's a website out there somewhere that shows the numbers, but this is what I've personally seen.


single rib case:
C4AW-A small bearing
C4AW-C large bearing
C7AW-E small bearing
C7AW-G large bearing

Nodular Case (w/ or w/o "N" on the front)
C4AW-B large bearing
D0OW-B small bearing

There was also a "C2AW-B" that some claim to be a Nodular, but I don't think that debate has ever been settled.