5S199 at BJ Scottsdale

[Shelby_r_b]

I don't know anything about this car, but it sure seemed to be below what the recent market has been for 65 GT350s at auction (all in price of $324.5K).

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1965-SHELBY-GT350-210000

Also, the R Model (as mentioned in another thread) didn't get past the $800K mark.

Do people think the market is softening on 65s...both R and non-R?

[Bob Gaines]

I don't know anything about this car, but it sure seemed to be below what the recent market has been for 65 GT350s at auction (all in price of $324.5K).

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1965-SHELBY-GT350-210000

Also, the R Model (as mentioned in another thread) didn't get past the $800K mark.

Do people think the market is softening on 65s...both R and non-R?

You can't take the results at face value IMO. In pictures the vast majority of all restored look the same. You have to see them in person. Know what you are looking or having someone who knows what they are looking at is essential. You have to know those specific cars . To me the 199 car was a little low but not much based on the car which I have seen before. In this case most likely a few people potential buyers who looked at it and were told or realized it would not be a high scoring car in concours if so entered. Keep in mind that correctness aspect is the yardstick these cars are typically value assessed by. It has been at auction a number of times. The last time I saw it the car it  would be a low Bronze in DIV II concours IMO. I didn't see it this time but no reason to think it has changed based on what I do see in the pictures. There are a lot of people who will get the wrong perception based on a car like this and what it bid to. That will effect the market in a negative way. It isn't a correct perception but that is what happens when you get a lot of commodity buyers who really don't know the difference and base assessment that the cars are all equal condition.  They are not.   

[Vernon Estes]

The 65-66 market is remarkably strong for good examples, just as it has been for the last 3 years.  Great cars are still, and will continue to, bring great money. Right now, I have a number of buyers who are ready to pay strong money for great 65s specifically and I have sold 2 65s in the past month.

As things pertain to Scottsdale, yes, the prices bid for some of the 65/66 offerings were lower than typical.

With that said, it might be more relevant to look to the quality/originality of the 65/66 offerings from the various auction houses this weekend in Scottsdale as a possible reason for the low results.  A little bit of homework might just leave you a little unimpressed.  As a matter of fact, the percentage of truly scary examples for sale in one weekend in close proximity to each over was mind-boggling. You can always expect one landmine to be lurking in scottsdale any given year but this year there were more than 2. Some of those cars actually brought, or were bid to, remarkably high prices considering what the cars actually are. As an aside, I am not referring specifically to 199 or any other car..certainly not naming serial numbers when I've got no skin in the game.

As Gump said, "that's all I've got to say about that"

Kind regards,
Vern

[2112]

Just curious about the descriptive "landmine".

Does that mean a car that not concours quality or does it mean a car resurrected from a heap of rust or significant accident damage?

[Shelby_r_b]

Thanks Bob and Vern for the insight!  I'm always interested to see what pricing trends are doing.

As mentioned in another post, I saw a bunch of 68s in person go through Mecum Kissimmee a few weeks back.  And, you're right, Bob - seeing them up close is WAY different.  I've seen that scenario played out time and again.

And, those cars sold for WAY more than I had anticipated, especially given their condition. 

[sfm5s081]

I was the under bidder! The car wasn't bad. I didn't like the radio, especially the antenna drilled into the trunk area. Wrong fuel pump, lots of repairs in the hood. But all in all, a great deal for a nice car

[Vernon Estes]

Just curious about the descriptive "landmine".

Does that mean a car that not concours quality or does it mean a car resurrected from a heap of rust or significant accident damage?

I use the term "landmine" to describe a car which reads as one way in a reference source...let's say, for the sake of discussion, an auction catalog...when those who have done their homework, have seen pre-restoration photos, and/or have spoken with a past owner or restorer etc etc, know the car to be a completely different level of originality than portrayed by those attempting to sell the car.   In short, a car which is up for grabs and can easily be purchased by someone without that person being aware of the level of originality (or lack there of) of a certain car because published portrayal of the car so heavily conflicts with reality.  To be quite frank, the old forum itself even had valuable discussion revolving around one of the cars being offered in Scottsdale in particular. The forum thread from years ago was not available to the general purchasing public because the old forum went down and I guess will never be available.

Sometimes the marketing materials for these cars read as such a far cry from the truth that those who know better are either crying from laughter or stricken with fear/disgust by the end of the description.

Sorry to sound so negative...but the reality of this hobby is that there is a very dishonest side to it. This weekend in Scottsdale there were not many 65-66 cars up for grabs and so when 2-3 show up and are really messy cars...the results are heavily skewed downwards on a weekend which is generally used as a yardstick for the overall health of the market. And its a revolving downward spiral because the low results on the bad cars lead buyers in AZ to be hesitant to bid generously on the good cars that show up. In this particular case, all I am saying is that the sale results in AZ on 65-66 cars is not indicative of what I see every week on the private market for these cars. The market is and will continue to be strong for good cars. This isnt my opinion alone...other guys (who usually dont post on forums) but are heavily involved/sell and broker many cars in the 65-67 market feel the same way.

And, for the record, readers should keep in mind that while some good 65-66s show up at public auction...these are cars which have plenty of qualified and serious buyers waiting to purchase them on the private market. Good, air-tight cars don't need auction houses. That's not to say that some cars that go to auction arent great examples (there are plenty every year that come to public auction for an array of reasons) but "so-so" examples and the cars of the scary variety sure are more prevalent on the public auction circuit...because they are remarkably difficult to sell on the private market.  Easier for people to offload those examples onto someone who has indulged a bit too much at the bidder's bar..

Kind regards,
Vern

PS- just wanted to plainly state again that my posts are not referring or responding particularly to #199. My posts are largely in response to the original poster's question about whether the results in AZ are indicators of a softening market overall. Im trying to convey that there are many other factors at play here and, as Bob said, the quality and originality of cars can vary greatly. So sale results of a few don't indicate a wider trend, at least not that I am seeing.

[2112]

I guess that answers the question I had.

To paraphrase, the top money is still there if the car is truly assmeblyline/concours perfect.

I sure don't have a problem with that. Getting them that way is a monumental expenditure of time and money and expertise.

If I were to lament anything, that would be that a rising tide doesn't seem to raise all boats. Meaning, if top cars are on the increase, mid level cars (appropriately described) are also on the increase, albeit on a different curve.

I don't have a desire to have a concours car, and certainly don't want one by just stroking a check, but it would be comforting for those of us with drivers to think that the money we did spend was at the very least, not depreciating more, and possibly even appreciating a bit.

At least that is my opinion.

[Vernon Estes]

I guess that answers the question I had.

To paraphrase, the top money is still there if the car is truly assmeblyline/concours perfect.

I sure don't have a problem with that. Getting them that way is a monumental expenditure of time and money and expertise.

If I were to lament anything, that would be that a rising tide doesn't seem to raise all boats. Meaning, if top cars are on the increase, mid level cars (appropriately described) are also on the increase, albeit on a different curve.

I don't have a desire to have a concours car, and certainly don't want one by just stroking a check, but it would be comforting for those of us with drivers to think that the money we did spend was at the very least, not depreciating more, and possibly even appreciating a bit.

At least that is my opinion.

I would actually add that there is a change which has been going on in the market for the last few years. In my experience, a car doesn't have to be a concours car to bring the highest retail values. The cars which are bringing the most money right now are the most honest, most well documented, and most original examples.  Purchasers also prefer cars which run and drive like they should, even if the car is or used to be a concours car. The last three concours level cars I have sold immediately had radials mounted and are now being driven.

It used to be that a concours correct car was automatically going to be at the top of the value curve. While that is still often true, there is a lot more that goes into a purchaser's consideration now...originality (how much of the original car is still there) being the top concern IMHO

And a rising tide certainly does lift all boats for sure.

Kind regards,
Vern

[Bigfoot]

Car in question have original born with motor?

[Shelby73]

I thought all of the Shelby's I watched at BJ brought good money, how about the 001 66 shelby at 600k was that not enough? I think the truth is if you have not bought a 65 or 66 yet then the situation is not going to get easier for your wallet. The good 66s are definitely going to get higher, the 65s have been adjusting up over the last few years while the 66s were staying about the same. Not all cars are sold at auctions. While good cars show up at auctions there are plenty that show up that are not that great trying to find someone that is not educated on the difference between a decent car and a great car. They invented auctions to force people to make quick decisions. I can tell you this there are a hell of a lot more 65-66 Shelby's that fall in the decent car category than in the unmolested, never any rust, original engine, original body panels, original floors, unrestored, always garaged great car category and those are the ingredients that can make a car sell or not sell, and make some bring 100k more than others. I recently saw a 66 Shelby at a auction that had nothing correct and was not even a real one and if had not told them no one would have ever known. It's really hard to believe that could happen.

[PhilS]

I am the buyer for 199. It was represented as original drivetrain. Three people who have knowledge of this car also believe that to be true. I was not looking for a trailer queen but wanted a solid car without a scary history. I also like the wheels and trunk mounted battery. I plan to drive the car some so it seems to be a good fit for me. I was surprised to get the car at this price so at this point I'm a happy buyer.

[EdwardGT350]

^ congrats on your purchase. keep the shiny side up.

[GT350Lad]

It's an awesome car mate; well done 

[harleys3]

I think you bought exactly the car you wanted. Congratulations.  Enjoy!