Coralsnake Intake manifold discussion

[Coralsnake]

Whats your idea on where gt350 intakes were installed?

[QuickSilverShelby]

Thanks for the update Pete.  We always appreciate it.

QSS

[Special Ed]

Pete i think iron 351 intakes were changed out at aosmith as thats why they used the blue painted bolts and other attaching parts over. If  the shelby intake  was installed at ford they would have used all  unpainted bolts and  attaching parts and it would have made a better looking engine. Also if intake was installed at ford they would have to keep them engines separated and stored and inventory would be a problem building then 4 ways auto vs 4 speed and auto a/c  vs 4-speed a/c not knowing what was ordered and sold as shelbys. Also if ford would have built the engines as special gt350 engines they would have there own unique engine code tags and decals.

[Bob Gaines]

Pete i think iron 351 intakes were changed out at aosmith as thats why they used the blue painted bolts and other attaching parts over. If  the shelby intake  was installed at ford they would have used all  unpainted bolts and  attaching parts and it would have made a better looking engine. Also if intake was installed at ford they would have to keep them engines separated and stored and inventory would be a problem building then 4 ways auto vs 4 speed and auto a/c  vs 4-speed a/c not knowing what was ordered and sold as shelbys.

The valve covers were installed at Ford on SB and BB as vintage pictures confirm so Ford had to know which were  Shelby engines from that aspect alone. I believe Ford installed the 69 GT350 intake as it would be most cost efficient and they had it figured out in 67 production given the bare aluminum engine plant installed GT500 intake that wasn't as easy as a SB intake unpainted aluminum intake to install . Vintage pictures of GT500 automatic engine completely dressed prior to installing on the Ford line.  I questioned Chuck Cantwell several times over the years and he said that SA didn't install any intakes in 67. With that said if it could be done and was done in 67 production I don't see why it wouldn't be done in 69 with the GT350 especially since the engine was certified with the aluminum intake from the get go unlike 68.     

[Bob Gaines]

Not a 69 but this vintage 67 production photo (Speed and Supercar August 1967) example illustrates that Ford engine plant had the ability to separate Shelby engines from regular Mustang engines regardless of if small block or big block. The full dress GT500 engine also illustrates that if Ford can accomplish the complicated GT500 intake install at the Ford engine plant on the 428 PI engine that logically a small block intake install would be simple by comparison given how many less steps the small block intake install has. Admittedly not a absolute validation for the 69 GT350 Ford engine plant intake install however it debunks that Ford would not know which engines were going on Shelby's along with the variations like auto,4 speed, Smog, AC or no AC.

[J_Speegle]

Do agree that the intake attaching bolts, therm housing (with bolts, bypass hose and clamps) like in earlier small blocks were transferred from the cast iron intakes to the aluminum ones during the conversion. This included the heater hose elbow also.

As far as keeping track of a couple of additional engine types in loading or shipping it really should not create an issue given the 100 or so different engines being built at different plants and models of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury products of the time.  Just a couple of more lines on a form. We do IMO already have examples of different ID practices of identifying Shelby engines all the way back into 65 production.


Would make a mention so that someone does not assume  something incorrect. In the picture above of the 67 GT500 engine and trans they were not shipped that was from the engine or transmission plant. Appears someone was doing something possibly at Shelby with a lose motor and trans to test or show something. Don't think it was taken at San Jose but could be incorrect on that. Not sure why someone would be there taking pictures specifically of those two items plus it appears to be a concrete floor. 

[Special Ed]

Yeah that 67 gt500 engine photo is interesting look at tall carb studs and bare block wrapped in plastic bags in the back ground. If ford would have wanted to build 69 gt350 engines separately from the start they would have there own special engine code since they would install aluminum intake and valve covers and ram air lid before shipping (but ram air lid may have been installed on the dearborn assembly line or aosmith not sure). The fact that all intake parts are painted blue and used over when aluminum intake was installed tells u the engine had a finished painted blue cast iron intake setup and the fact that the blue painted gauge feed wire j-straps were on the steel valve cover bolts painted blue were used over when the aluminum shelby valve covers were installed. It would have been easier to switch the intake and valves over before the engine drop so could that have been done at the dearborn assembly line? But it also wouldnt have been to hard to switch out at aosmith plant before the fiberglass nose was installed easy access to work on engine also that may be the reason why we dont see engine lift hooks on the 351w shelbys as they may have been removed before aluminum valve covers were installed since the engine was already in place they werent needed anymore not sure on that.

[Coralsnake]

I will do a search to see if we can find some evidence to support either theory. I honestly dont know...

[69 GT350 Vert]

Also if ford would have built the engines as special gt350 engines they would have there own unique engine code tags and decals.

I thought the K211-S engine tag on my gt350 is a unique code for gt350 with an automatic transmission. 

[shelbymann1970]

Great work pete and i see the 69 shelbys are starting to get a little love on the coralsnake site. So u thinking the difference between 420 s vs 420 t engine code is the air cleaner change using the orange hose bleeder valve on choke as the air cleaner i would think was installed on the assembly line but the  automatic choke orange hose with T metal tube would have been installed at the engine plant and that would make a change in the engine code from s to t. Also u said  in your photo the c9ze-e fan didnt use a clutch but i think u meant the  scj c90e-h fan didnt use a clutch. The 69 water pump pulley and belts are always a problem figuring out without a build sheet since 3 pulleys were used on the 69 cj/scj. Even thou the march -july 69 scj build sheets call out the c9ze-e clutch fan changeover i have never documented it and only seen c90e-h fans on 69  v and w code scjs. I tried to document the fan change over on the 428 cj site years ago but had problems figueing it out since most scj cars were raced and molested back in the 70s so does anybody have a late 69 gt500 scj with the c9ze-e clutch fan that came on the car from factory?  thanks

Ed, while I cannot say my fan and clutch are original to my car my car(69 NJ Mach1) has the "E" with a clutch and also no gear reducer and a V code May 91969 build(it Fits the 428 CJ site parts/time line). I know the fan/Clutch was most likely with the car when the prior owner got it in 1980. My car has always had a SCJ engine in it so no reason to think my car was a cobbled together SCJ car.

[shelbymann1970]

Great work pete and i see the 69 shelbys are starting to get a little love on the coralsnake site. So u thinking the difference between 420 s vs 420 t engine code is the air cleaner change using the orange hose bleeder valve on choke as the air cleaner i would think was installed on the assembly line but the  automatic choke orange hose with T metal tube would have been installed at the engine plant and that would make a change in the engine code from s to t. Also u said  in your photo the c9ze-e fan didnt use a clutch but i think u meant the  scj c90e-h fan didnt use a clutch. The 69 water pump pulley and belts are always a problem figuring out without a build sheet since 3 pulleys were used on the 69 cj/scj. Even thou the march -july 69 scj build sheets call out the c9ze-e clutch fan changeover i have never documented it and only seen c90e-h fans on 69  v and w code scjs. I tried to document the fan change over on the 428 cj site years ago but had problems figueing it out since most scj cars were raced and molested back in the 70s so does anybody have a late 69 gt500 scj with the c9ze-e clutch fan that came on the car from factory?  thanks

ED, that orange 70 GT500 with 500 miles built June 2 appears by one pic I have to have a non clutch fan and a V code.

[Road Reptile]

Hi and Happy New Year!
Just thinking about intake manifolds and the process of production would lead us to think any engine work that involved its operation (run properly) would be done by Ford.
They would have to certify it passed emission testing. Shelby was the end label but not responsible for certification. Ford knew exactly what they were supplying by the DSO
Process so simple to separate the special components for a fleet run which is what Ford considered Shelby. This is consistent for the entire Shelby production run starting in 1964. Remember emissions standards changed every year and Ford was responsible for the testing. Ever wonder why a BOSS 429 ended up with a smaller carb than a BOSS 302 ??
Apparently it was cold weather driveability and emissions....What a difference a few changes make in power output of a BOSS 429-Talk about waking up the sleeping giant!!
Don't want to get off track here, Will wait for Pete to dig up something.
R.R.

[J_Speegle]

Yeah that 67 gt500 engine photo is interesting look at tall carb studs and bare block wrapped in plastic bags in the back ground. If ford would have wanted to build 69 gt350 engines separately from the start they would have there own special engine code since they would install aluminum intake and valve covers and ram air lid before shipping (but ram air lid may have been installed on the dearborn assembly line or aosmith not sure)..............

In the earlier years from original pictures it appears that engines that had been converted to Shelby engines at the engine plant were identified bot by the little paper sticker and code but by other markings.

Don't find it surprising that the painted complete engines were built, painted then ran through the various run tests at the engine plant prior to swapping out the valve covers, intakes and such like the prior years.  IMHO that would be the place to do the swap since these were the workers that were building the engines in the first place, had the needed gaskets and tools there. Parts that were taken off would have just been returned to the line and reinstalled on another engine reducing the need (if AO Smith had done the change over) to deal with those parts like Shelby had in the very first year or so when they handled the change. Plus IMO it helps with Ford warrantying the engines. If AOSmith had done the swap then Ford would be warrantying their work. Not sure if Ford legal beagles would have been comfortable with that.

In the spirit of discussion, just some thoughts looking at the history of the changes over more than a single year 

[warwick]

We just had a discussion re intake bolts on a 67 GT500 and the 67 GT 500 did not use typical Ford FE intake bolts-so they were not transferred. In addition the Ford bolts are place bolts (ie: locking) and the Grade 5 substitute is not. A little confusing.

(https://www.saac.com/forum/index.php?topic=29106.0)

[J_Speegle]

I think that some of the confusion comes from intermixing of different years and engine plants and in turn practices such as building the engines originally with the Cobra intakes or cast iron ones then swapping them.

Happens quite often on the site