Sleeping Beauty wakes up

[Bob Gaines]

I have spoken to a few that were around in the Hey Day of SHELBY production and it was said that the High Riser was the way to get to 170mph. Much has been written and changed about some of the facts, around all things SHELBY over the years. Over the decades there were some spotty specifics on this car so I did a little searching though I am not into archival discoveries. On the SHELBY FORUM they posted an article about the SUPER SNAKE on APRIL 15 1967 That MCCAIN and OL SHEL put a HIGH RISER in the 67 to get the most power out of it that was available at that time, long before stretched stories/half truths or just plain whoppers before they became the norm..... Check it out, curious what everyone thinks-

I am not trying to dispute the horsepower potential of the 427 highriser compared to the medium riser. I am   trying to establish what type of 427 engine has historically been in the car during its life. The main support document is August 1967 issue of drag strip magazine has a article about the Super Snake. Don McCain was interviewed for the article . As I read it now it specifically says the car was built with a LeMans 427 medium riser engine. The LeMans engine propelled the GT40's over 200MPH. The article goes on to describe the medium riser aluminum heads. The lightweight engine was the other name that engine went by and the name that is in some factory documents. That LeMans engine is the documented engine that car as well as the two others were born with so to speak because they took out the PI 428 that the car was delivered to SA from Ford with. The article goes on to say "When the car was first completed Carrol Shelby took it to Texas for some Goodyear tires tests". It doesn't say anything about another engine .  The facts suggest wishful thinking to justify a high riser engine install in the cars history. I was not able to find anything about a April 15 1967 article that talks about a 427 high riser engine in the Supersnake on the Shelby forum . If I missed it please help with a link or some other way to bring it to my attention.

[Road Reptile]

Hi to 67 fans,
The Super Snake is well known and has been documented all its life which must be one of the reasons it sold for such record money.....one of many reasons it was used for tire tests was the TORQUE output of its 427 the tall tires and the tall gears used.Nice to brag about horsepower numbers but the torque output of both 427 engines was very close, and with out any aerodynamic changes I seriously doubt you can go much faster even if you could control it. Keep in mind some of the first FORD G.T. cars crashed until they were able to get them stable. I seem to remember 180 mph causes lift- best to learn from the past....did you see the recent Mercedes cars that became kites, just a few years ago?  Be safe !!
R.R.

[427heaven]

HI BOB- Type in SHELBY FORUMS 1967 GT 500 SUPER SNAKE... Car of the month back in 2006. It shows an original article of SHELBYS tire test in 1967 it is a Competition press/ A publication dated April 15 1967. Scroll down to the article showing pictures of the car on track doing the tire test which yielded the 170mph speeds, clearly stating that it was High Riser powered because that was what Mccain and the boys at Shelby American felt was the best engine for that application.

[427heaven]

Maybe someone can copy and paste the written article here that we are talking about. The tire test that made the car famous... Seemingly 4 months BEFORE the article you are talking about.

[Bob Gaines]

Maybe someone can copy and paste the written article here that we are talking about. The tire test that made the car famous... Seemingly 4 months BEFORE the article you are talking about.

The written article you mention is only 4 sentences. After finding and reading the 4 sentences the article consisted of and with no other historical input I can understand why you feel the way you do. SAAC 67 Shelby registrar Dave Mathews list the first 427 engine installed in the Supersnake was the LeMans medium riser engine in the Registry. Also every other vintage description of the car is that of a medium riser. The auto week article was describing the car from generic information where as the drag strip magazine article was directly interviewing McCain for the article.The different types of 427 engines can be confusing to the uninformed. With all that said my best guess is that the Autoweek author was uninformed and he got mixed up not knowing the proper description of the 427 engine type. At least that is my best guess. Maybe he thought all 427 engines were "high risers". The engine in the vintage pictures are of the medium riser in the Drag strip magazine article and the contemporary pictures in the link you posted are also of a medium riser.Any other place a article has been written about the supersnake that mentions the 427 type medium riser is the discription. It seems that the preponderance of evidence suggest that the engine was in fact a 427 medium riser not a 427 high riser. At least until or if more definitive evidence comes forth to suggest otherwise.

[Bob Gaines]

here is the Autoweek article.

[Bob Gaines]

Hopefully you will be able to read some of the Drag strip Magazine article. While looking for this i discovered that I had two copy's so I would sell one if anyone is interested.

[Bob Gaines]

more

[427heaven]

For more then 40 years I have read various articles on this car stating that it originally ran a 427 High Riser for maximum performance after its original anemic 335 horsepower 428 was removed by Mccain and the boys for its original owners the 2 airline pilots... that wanted to Drag Race the car. A High Riser would have been the first choice for that application No? The Thunderbolts already had a proven track record in Drag Racing so as I was told that it was a simple thought process not to put in a lesser Medium riser Version of the 427. Race cars were always evolving so what was run at this test or at that track may have been completely different then what first was used. I dont think anyone is still alive that would have personal first hand knowledge of how things were in the beginning of 1967 on that car.

[S7MS427]

For more then 40 years I have read various articles on this car stating that it originally ran a 427 High Riser for maximum performance after its original anemic 335 horsepower 428 was removed by McCain and the boys for its original owners the 2 airline pilots... that wanted to Drag Race the car. A High Riser would have been the first choice for that application No? The Thunderbolts already had a proven track record in Drag Racing so as I was told that it was a simple thought process not to put in a lesser Medium riser Version of the 427. Race cars were always evolving so what was run at this test or at that track may have been completely different then what first was used. I don't think anyone is still alive that would have personal first hand knowledge of how things were in the beginning of 1967 on that car.

I've never seen a picture of the Super Snake with any other hood than the standard one, certainly not one tall enough to clear the carburetors on a high riser.  I really don't think they would have run the car without a hood at 170+ mph.  My conclusion is that this car probably always had a medium riser installed in it.  Perhaps Chuck Cantwell could shed some light on the car's configuration.  Wasn't he driving the car for the tire test?  Or am I just a confused old man and I've mixed up the cars and tests again?

[Bob Gaines]

For more then 40 years I have read various articles on this car stating that it originally ran a 427 High Riser for maximum performance after its original anemic 335 horsepower 428 was removed by Mccain and the boys for its original owners the 2 airline pilots... that wanted to Drag Race the car. A High Riser would have been the first choice for that application No? The Thunderbolts already had a proven track record in Drag Racing so as I was told that it was a simple thought process not to put in a lesser Medium riser Version of the 427. Race cars were always evolving so what was run at this test or at that track may have been completely different then what first was used. I dont think anyone is still alive that would have personal first hand knowledge of how things were in the beginning of 1967 on that car.

By your comments you are disputing the cumulative back up factory documentation that the SAAC registrar has on the subject that contradicts your point of view. I respectfully don't think you have the back up information or the credentials to pull that off. You are also disputing the vintage pictures which are hard to dispute . The high riser intake manifold is remarkably different in appearance compared to a medium rise intake. The vintage picture in the vintage article and all others show the engine bay of #544 with a medium rise intake. Do you have any substantiated vintage photos of the Supersnake with the before mention high riser intake? As far as "lessor medium riser" (your words) a quote from the article interviewing with McCain states "if you take every racing part Ford offers for the 427 high riser engine put them in a medium riser design, add aluminum heads and front engine cover, you have about the most dependable racing engines available." That high horsepower dependable engine seems like the logical choice to be used in a high speed endurance like the the tire test in my opinion.  If the high riser was so much better don't you think Ford would have used it in the most high profile event on the world stage at that time with the LeMans winning GT40's ? I wish you the best of luck with your efforts of trying to go 170 MPH Like Shelby did driving during the tire test back in 67. I don't think it makes a difference if your car has a medium riser or a high riser in the effort to reach that goal. It is your car modify it the way you want and do with it the way you want.

[shelbydoug]

There is absolutely no photographic documentation anywhere that even suggests a HR 427. Basing a belief that it was is misguided.

The evidence that it was in fact a Ford "Lightweight 427" is overwhelming. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but those still clinging to the belief that the Earth is flat are in the minority.


There are some apparent "teasers" planted in various articles about the car. That has more to do I think with the "art" of auto journalism of the time?

I personally would like to see more details of this "8 quart oil pan" and "oil cooler assembly".
I'm trying to discern exactly what in those descriptions is fact and what is simply hyperbole.


There have been recent statements in our society about the accuracy of historical facts and there have been some that have the opinion of, "it depends on who writes the history" as far as the accuracy of the description of the events? In the case of the "Supersnake" there was little call for axes to be ground in grievance.

I stand with the Lightweight 427MR. The suggestion of "it really was a 427HR" just has too many characteristics of the current tendency of conspiracy theories.

As Grouch Marx was quoted, "who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?".


As in "Paradise Lost", there will always be those who reject authority. As "Satan" is thrown into the pit, he proclaims to God, "You have no Dominion over me". Personally, I'm not going to argue with either. That one is kind'a obvious?

Believe what you will at your own peril.

[FL SAAC]

For more then 40 years I have read various articles on this car stating that it originally ran a 427 High Riser for maximum performance after its original anemic 335 horsepower 428 was removed by Mccain and the boys for its original owners the 2 airline pilots... that wanted to Drag Race the car. A High Riser would have been the first choice for that application No? The Thunderbolts already had a proven track record in Drag Racing so as I was told that it was a simple thought process not to put in a lesser Medium riser Version of the 427. Race cars were always evolving so what was run at this test or at that track may have been completely different then what first was used. I dont think anyone is still alive that would have personal first hand knowledge of how things were in the beginning of 1967 on that car.

You can do it !

[shelbymann1970]

Bob, the article you posted  and the quote from page 60  and the pics says it all.

[Road Reptile]

Hey
Bob has beyond a doubt proven how #544 was built. Roy's point also is great-a high rise will not fit under a stock hood. And it was Fred Goodell that was present and drove the car for Shelby not Chuck Cantwell. So unless we find other information with pictures this is a no brainer. Anyone know how to post the video of the real car on the track?
maybe after watching it we can make you understand.
R.R.