289 Build Recommendations? Anyone?

[camp upshur]

Kiwi, a great guy, did us all a favor detailing that build on our old forum.
I'm surprised there is not more of this here.
Anyway I feel his numbers were right in line IMHO. Dynos can never be compared except for trend comparisons. Numbers can also be pumped on any build, on any dyno, for peak numbers which may not be your most usable combo.
On a flat-top 331, C7FE, w an archaic intake one could run 1.7s and a single plane and get the same longblock to appear more powerful perhaps....

[427heaven]

The OP was looking for 500 hp does anyone have any experience with 500 hp small blocks and cost associated with the build?

[shelbydoug]

No. How about 499?

Actually, I'd refer you to the 351c in KJspeed's 68 GT350 that John Barnes built. I believe it dynoed at 545 and 450 lb-ft at 5,000.

[427heaven]

Well we started out looking for a 289 making 450 plus... Then we switched to a 351 c which is a much more capable engine.

[Side-Oilers]

Kiwi knew his stuff. I shredded many a Goodyear with him, during our 25 years of working together and testing/building/thrashing/writing about cars.

IMO: That buildup he did is a great affordable setup for a small-block street car that occasionally sees a racetrack.  I hope someone has it saved from Forum 1.0.

[Wedgeman]

Yes, I would like to see that reposted....

[shelbydoug]

This is the Mustang Monthly article.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1504-how-to-build-an-easy-400hp-333ci-small-block-on-a-budget/

[Wedgeman]

Thanks Doug ! ...

[427heaven]

That's really tough to see my friend KIWIS add and picture again... A terrible loss So 400 seems easily accessible but what about another 50 or even 100hp that's where the price will shoot to the moon. Like to see someones build, and price if they are willing to share.

[shelbydoug]

( So 400 seems easily accessible but what about another 50 or even 100hp that's where the price will shoot to the moon. Like to see someones build, and price if they are willing to share.

Well yes and no. The potential is there but some of the information is proprietary and no one is going to give a detailed instruction sheet and put it for free inside of a Cracker Jack box.

Some things need to be experimented with AFTER the initial build. For one thing, the engine as built is under cammed. It doesn't match the flow numbers of the heads.

The flow numbers of those heads, out of the box are better then stock Boss 302 heads. You need to deduct the valve clearances from the lift to get the actual valve lifts. With that set up simply put, you need 1.7 ratio rockers. That helps.



To me, the performance of the intake manifold is suspect.

Two things. Thing one. Cobra Automotive runs that manifold on their 292's that make 620hp. That is at 8,000 rpm.

The runner thicknesses on Ford intake manifolds is very thin. A die grinder needs to used judiciously and only on runner intake intersection points plus the manifold needs to be extrude honed.

620hp from CA is obtained with a set of computer designed headers. The price starts at $3,500, "but you gotta' leave the car".



Thing two. If you look at the dyno sheet for kjspeeds 351c with Webers, you will immediately (or should) start comparing similarities and differences.

The first thing is that the cubic inches is similar to a 347. The second thing is that the flow numbers on the Cleveland heads are similar. The rpm power points are similar with the engine topping out at about 6800 rpm. There is about 130 hp difference.



Webers. The first thing is that on both the Cleveland and the Windsor, both will immediately add about 80 to 85 hp. With appropriate changes to accommodate...dyno proven.

Equalizing that engine, if that is even possible, to Kiwi's engine, you would need to go to a similar 180 degree manifold and carb. Let's just say for the purpose of comparison, that manifold exists (it does) and that we loose the 85 hp the Webers provided?

OK. So that brings us to about 460hp on that iron head Cleveland.



Now the purpose of those AFR 1388 heads was to put the power production potential of a Windsor in the same group as the Cleveland. It does. So here's the question, where's the 45hp missing from Kiwi's engine?

Is the answer only proprietary? Maybe?



As far as sitting there with a calculator, 427heaven, that's difficult to do accurately. Some money is going to be spent foolishly. Lots of time is going to be invested sometimes with little or reversing results, and no pay for your time.

Kurt's engines start at $30,000. Webers are around $4,000. Kiwi's engine looks like it was around $5,000, not including what he paid his son to clean the block ( ). I put the calculator away. I broke several pounding on the keys and everyone stays away from me when I start pounding away on the keyboards. That right there is wisdom gained from previous experience.



My solution to find the additional horses was to go to a 2x4 setup. 1.7 rockers. 347 cubes.

There is something substantial to be gained there but it has it's drawbacks. First off, there is a lot more horse manure to pick up in the yard first.  My kids have moved out so I have to clean it up myself. Then I get tired and need to take a nap and forget what I was up to on the engine development?

Worse. My fingers hurt now from pounding on this freakin' keyboard.



Kiwi did a good job. I guess I miss him too?

[kjspeed]

539hp @ 7000, 452 torque. Driving is believing as it pulls hard all the way to the 7200rpm red line.

[427heaven]

I feel a little like special counsel Robert Moeller when asking questions about a 289 making 450+ HP. I didn't ask the question blindly without any understanding of cost associated with a 289 making big power. The question was asked when I already had the answer,so for someone like Roush, Yates, Kurt Vogt, and a handful of others charging 30-40k is out of reach for the little guy racer. Most here wont admit whats inside of their pride and joy or cost associated with its build, so if the OP is new to all this maybe 5000.00 for 350 Hp is good enough. We will leave the 351c out for further discussion as it is much more capable of making inexpensive power.

[shelbydoug]

We will leave the 351c out for further discussion as it is much more capable of making inexpensive power.

I have one of those too. "Inexpensive" is a relative term. I wouldn't call it that. My relatives won't give me any money for that.

The point with the new Windsor heads is that those are now competitive with the Cleveland heads. HP should be similar?

[camp upshur]

These Windsors pull 940:

[gt350hr]

I'm located in San Antonio.  thanks for the input guys

    If you want to stay local and have someone build it for you try John @ Mission Auto Parts in San Antonio. He is well known for his Ford expertise .
  Randy