original engine v/s non original?

[Bigblock]

This topic gets a lot of conversation in the 427/CJ Cougar world where many of the cars have service blocks.

[Bob Gaines]

Greek:....You are correct ...

Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..

Bret

I would hate to have to argue that point. You come off looking like that guy trying to make excuses.

[Skidado]

Greek:....You are correct ...

Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..

Bret

Has anyone tried to create a list of those that do and those that don't?  #2751 does NOT (as far as I can see) have the VIN stamped in the block.

David.

[capecodmustang.com]

David:   Dave Mathews, the 67 Registrar has a good idea what 67s would and would not have a VIN on their blocks.
I can give him a 67 I came across and he can almost tell me in advance that it likely won't have a VIN on it's block.
It appears throughout the 67 production run hundreds of 289HPs didn't have their VIN stamped on the engine.
They're pretty much scattered about.

Bret

[shelbydoug]

Greek:....You are correct ...

Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..

Bret

Has anyone tried to create a list of those that do and those that don't?  #2751 does NOT (as far as I can see) have the VIN stamped in the block.

David.

If a "period correct" engine is installed with knowledge of how it should look from the assembly line, how would an owner know if it was original to the car? I don't think that you would be able to tell. In fact, I would always be suspicious of a car that appeared all correct but had a non-documented chain of ownership.

I have seen cars that were being represented as completely original by the original owner, only to find out that they aren't the original owners and some of the components were changed under normal service over the years.

In many cases, period correct is the best that you can do. How many cars in Concourse are completely 100% original? I think this is just chasing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I wouldn't necessarily accept a list of original cars. Just because someone puts something in print, doesn't make it so. I've been told by Concourse Judges here that I can't prove anything because I wasn't on the assembly line with a camera documenting the assembly.

[capecodmustang.com]

I would say it's hard to confirm a matching number original engine without a VIN

With the 67 GT 350s though there's a long list of owners without VINS on their engine blocks and they are all around the same production dates.

The registrar has confirmed these automobiles over time

In another case I owned (2) 68 GT 500 convertible's a couple years ago.
Both were very early double digit cars.
Both were built within a day of each other in late 1967.
Both had perfectly dated 428PIs and neither had a VIN on it's head or block.

Bret

[shelbydoug]

I would say it's hard to confirm a matching number original engine without a VIN

With the 67 GT 350s though there's a long list of owners without VINS on their engine blocks and they are all around the same production dates.

The registrar has confirmed these automobiles over time

In another case I owned (2) 68 GT 500 convertible's a couple years ago.
Both were very early double digit cars.
Both were built within a day of each other in late 1967.
Both had perfectly dated 428PIs and neither had a VIN on it's head or block.

Bret

As a former Registrar I can tell you that it is just taking information from owners on something like this. Those current owners could just as well be trying to prove a "Dealer Installed 427". They can't. Because it is in print, doesn't make it so. Some owners haven't been heard from for thirty years.

No one asked that question 30 years ago.


You just accumulate data, put it together in a spread sheet, then let others look for common denominators which may or may not be just coincidence?

Unless someone had factory documentation like a factory document of some kind that says a particular DSO number states, "no engine numbers stamped on engines", you simply can't prove anything.


The general rule IF one exists would be that the engines ARE stamped with engine numbers. Anything else is simply an anomaly.


As far as engines missing VIN numbers, stamping sets are cheap and easy to use. One doesn't need to be an artist to make them look original.

[Coralsnake]

I think the operative statement here is "as far as I can see"

You can have ten people unexperienced people look at ten motors and that wont tell you anything.

Many people have an agenda, many others don thave the experience of what the stampings look like.

There probably were unstamped engine assemblies, but it probably happens a lot less than people want to admit. (1968)

I have seen heads, blocks and or intakes stamped. Unless you have perfectly clean castings on a bench in good light, it could be easy to miss a lot of these "hidden" numbers.

The unstamped odd balls can usually be narrowed down to a week or day as far as casting dates go.

I have a list of 428 CJ water pump dates and they follow a very rigid pattern. Im sure heads and blocks are similar.

[capecodmustang.com]

I've never seen a 65 or 66 GT 350 with it's original engine not stamped.

My experience with 67's is quite different with the 289s.

I've seen 67s with excellent integrity without a VIN on their block.
However, it has a perfectly dated 289HP in the vehicle.
And it's with dozens of other GT 350's without a VIN that was built the same day/week.

In one case a Massachusetts owner showed me his GT 350
Original owner with low miles.
He stated the engine has never been out of the car.
There's no VIN..
I can't question his honesty and or have him prove a negative.

Bret

[427heaven]

So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.

[shelbydoug]

So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.

Bigfoot sightings? He was just here posting wasn't he?

[427heaven]

Often heard but oh so rarely seen. Unless someone ventured far to the great north east wilderness or the occasional race track sightings.

[Coralsnake]

Personally, I think the fact the car doesnt have an original engine is already built into the price, cars that do have the documentation and originality deserve a premium.

[Dizzy]

Pete, I agree that instead of "deduction" for non-original engine,there should be a "premium" /percentage added for original engine,as well as trans, rear axle. I believe that a high percentage of restored cars do NOT have factory/day one drivetrain and the cars being sold recently reflect that in prices. Originality has driven values in collector cars for many years. Just my opinion,but replacing ORIGINAL interior that is in good/excellent condition with a new,reproduction interior detracts from the originality. The more non-original/day one parts a car has the more it becomes a replica/clone of an original.....There is only ONE engine that is CORRECT for an accurate/perfect restoration. I believe it would be accurate to ADD a percentage to your value chart of '68 Shelbys,for ORIGINAL drivetrain. Possibly 10% for engine? Just my personal opinions,of course.....

[Bigfoot]

So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.

Bigfoot sightings? He was just here posting wasn't he?

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