Engine Tag

[SFM6S087]

Does anyone have a 1966 GT350 after 6s252 that has its original engine tag? If so, would you please post a picture of the tag and tell us the Shelby VIN of your car.

Thanks,
Steve Sloan

[6s1640]

Hi Steve,

It is unlikely anyone will respond to your request.  It is pretty well known that the 65-66 GT350's did not come with an engine tag.  The rational is that the tag went with the cast iron intake, assuming they were on the cast iron intake, when the cast iron intake was removed after painting and the aluminum intake was installed.  Later production HiPo's built for GT350 applications may not even had a tag with the cast iron intake.  If there is a 65-66 GT350 with a tag out there, it is not typical and would be difficult to prove the car came with the tag.

In the attached image, taken from a Competition Press from back in the day, you can see Shelby American was trying to sell the take off parts.  Notice the tag still on the cast iron intake.

The unfortunate thing, is I expect many of these intakes and HiPo C5OF-L or J and maybe a few C6ZFC  carb's went into the dumpster.  Hopefully recycled and not tossed into a land fill.  It is likely many of the C6ZFF carb were spared, because many ended up back on the automatic cars.  It all depends when the engine mods were transferred from SAI in Californida to the Cleveland engine assembly plant.

Best of luck

Cory

[SFM6S087]

Cory,

Thanks for the great info and the picture of that advertisement. I know that a small handful of 1965 and carryover GT350's got through the process with their engine tag still there. I'm guessing those few tags probably just stuck to the temp sensor when it was swapped from one intake to the other. So I was interested in whether any of the later cars may have accidentally ended up with their tag.

In particular, I'm interested in the 554-J portion of the stamping on the tag. The few 1965 & carryover tags I've seen have 554-J in the stamping. I'm curious if that's also true of the later 1966 chassis GT350's.

But as you said, most, if not all, of the tags on those engines did not survive the intake swap. I'd like to think at least a few tags stayed with their original engine (like what happened in 1965), but possibly not.

Thanks for your input.

Steve

[Chad]

Steve,  You are correct!!  I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal.  It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car.  It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!

Chad

[tesgt350]

Steve,  You are correct!!  I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal.  It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car.  It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!

Chad

Was it a Shelby Intake or could it have been the Factory Cast Iron Intake?

[SFM6S087]

Steve,  You are correct!!  I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal.  It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car.  It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!

Chad

Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes. Is there some link between those two exceptions to the standard production process? I know that 6S030 fits that scenario. I may have to start another topic about that.

For now, I'm still hoping someone with a 1966 chassis GT350 will turn up with an original engine tag that can be used in another research project I'm working on.

Steve

[Sfm6sxxx]

5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91.  bare aluminum intake

[J_Speegle]

Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes.

Believe we found that connection during the discussion in the prior version of this site (before the crash)  Seems that the worker was not well instructed to exactly what was to be done or they forgot to tell him. Things were corrected in the next batch and consistent (in general) on those that followed.

Mistakes or individual screw-ups possible.  That's the reason for your request

[SFM6S087]

Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes.

Believe we found that connection during the discussion in the prior version of this site (before the crash)  Seems that the worker was not well instructed to exactly what was to be done or they forgot to tell him. Things were corrected in the next batch and consistent (in general) on those that followed.

Mistakes or individual screw-ups possible.  That's the reason for your request

I know of 11 cars that had black painted intakes. 7 of them are known to have their original engine tags. The other 4 may or may not have their original tags. I have not been able to determine that yet. Either way, that's a pretty tight correlation considering that the overwhelming majority of 1965-66 GT350's did not have their original engine tags.

About your mention that a "worker was not well instructed." Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date? If it's an established fact, would you please share the supporting evidence?

I ask because I have an alternate theory. I think the black painted intakes were installed by Ford at the Cleveland engine plant. And they had original engine tags because that was required of engines when they left that plant for tracking purposes. I don't think the workers installing engines at San Jose and other facilities tracked and installed engines based on the appearance of the engine. I think they worked based on the engine tags. So any engine installed by Ford would require an engine tag – at least when it rolled off the Ford assembly line.

For most of the 1965-66 GT350's that tag was separated from the car when SA swapped the cast iron intake for the aluminum Cobra intake. A few (like 5s363) came through that process with their engine tags still there. But that was a rare exception. Probably caused by a tag simply sticking to the temperature sensor during the intake swap.

But the cars with black painted Cobra intakes from Ford didn't required that swap at SA and therefore kept the engine tags that were on them when they rolled out of San Jose.

We may never know the full answer to this, but I think mine is a pretty good theory which is supported by the evidence that we have at this point in time.

If you think this is getting too deep for an open forum topic, you know my email address. I'd be happy to continue this offline if you wish.

Respectfully,
Steve Sloan

[J_Speegle]

About your mention that a "worker was not well instructed." Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date? If it's an established fact, would you please share the supporting evidence?

I ask because I have an alternate theory. I think the black painted intakes were installed by Ford at the Cleveland engine plant....

Yes was referring to Cleveland also

I'm a ways from Cleveland and have not interviewed the worker assigned to painting the altered engines in 1965 so its best best guess based on the fact that they were not painted before and not after this (what appears) to be a very short period

And they had original engine tags because that was required of engines when they left that plant for tracking purposes. I don't think the workers installing engines at San Jose and other facilities tracked and installed engines based on the appearance of the engine. I think they worked based on the engine tags. ............

Believe they were using the paper labels as identifications for the line workers and those working (prepping engines and trans combinations) on the mezzanine.  Tags were too small for quick identification. Believe its a possibility that there was additional identification for the engine intended to be installed into, what would become Shelby's to help the workers place once and if the engine plant was installing the Shelby parts it would have been obvious. 

................So any engine installed by Ford would require an engine tag – at least when it rolled off the Ford assembly line.

Using your words Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date?  I don't recall seeing anything related to the metal engine tag on a travelers or final inspection form. If you have something would love to see it.




In addition we do have pictures showing engines with additional labeling sitting at Cleveland in '65  with additional labeling which appears to read "DSO" like we find on rearends built for the same applications, waiting to be freighted to the car plant (s)

We can discuss this more off line rather than getting deep in the weeds here then share the discoveries. Agree this has gone off thread a bit and don't want to take the attention from your request/search

[SFM6S087]

Jeff, thanks for the great, detailed reply. I see there's something I left out of my analysis - the paper engine tags. I'll send you an email for followup discussion as I'd like to see some of the pics you mention.

For forum members following this thread let me clarify something. I agree with Jeff that the black Cobra intakes were installed and painted at Ford. My point of interest is where the engine tags were separated from the engines - Ford or SA. I believed that engines in cars leaving the San Jose assembly line would require identification via the engine tags. Jeff pointed out the paper labels which I had forgotten about. That makes my engine tag question of no consequence for the research I'm doing.

Steve Sloan

[shelbydoug]

Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?

[J_Speegle]

Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?

I've never heard of nor seen any evidence of that on the GT350's as we find on the 67 GT500 or the Boss 302's for examples. Overspray or paint blow out on gaskets, intake or other areas around the edges of the intake as you would find with a mask. On the 500's they didn't have a choice since the head and intake design is so different - doesn't allow  for an easy swap due to the valve train design. Always difficult somewhat, to put ourselves in the minds of engineers and plant managers of the time period looking backwards IMHO

[acman63]

Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?

assemblyline pics of 65s at SA  show new intakes on the floor getting ready to install

[SFM6S087]

5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91.  bare aluminum intake

Sfm6sxxx, that's great information for my research. Thanks for sharing!

Steve