Engine Tag

[CharlesTurner]

Hey Guys,

Yes the intake on 558 was the Cobra aluminum intake.  I can not remember the gentleman's name in WI that did a lot of research on the black intake topic.  I think his name is Dave.  He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350.  I can not remember the number.  He sold it a couple years ago.  Anyway he knows a lot about it.  I believe he figured that towards the end of 65 production Ford installed som of the intakes on the 65 Shelbys and that is why they got painted black.

Probably thinking of Dave Steine, who had 5S520, around 10k original miles.  Believe the car was sold sometime in the past couple years?

[gt350hr]

   Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there. That is likely where the "black" intake came from. There isn't a memo saying they stopped. Nor is there a memo saying to stop painting them.
   In talking with a "pit guy" Bert Brown ( from the day) he talked about conversion competitions held by the various "teams" that worked the pit changing pans and headers versus the "top crew" that installed  valve covers , manifolds , and carbs. When SAI closed in '67 Bert went on to Shelby Racing Co until it's doors were closed in late '69.
   Randy

[shelbydoug]

   Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there.
   Randy

I realize that but the thread was suggestive that somehow that had been discredited and that was what was being debated privately? What doesn't make sense to me is that why the bolts would be blue if Ford installed the intakes? Unless the engines were already assembled for regular K cars and engines were rescheduled for Shelbys after the fact.

Considering how Ford co-ordinates the parts necessary and has them ready as the cars go down the line, that seems far fetched. Blue bolts on SA installed intakes, sure, but on Ford installed, nah.

I don't remember the memo date and the changeover scheduled and if it says that?

That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?

[Bob Gaines]

   Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there.
   Randy

I realize that but the thread was suggestive that somehow that had been discredited and that was what was being debated privately? What doesn't make sense to me is that why the bolts would be blue if Ford installed the intakes? Unless the engines were already assembled for regular K cars and engines were rescheduled for Shelbys after the fact.

Considering how Ford co-ordinates the parts necessary and has them ready as the cars go down the line, that seems far fetched. Blue bolts on SA installed intakes, sure, but on Ford installed, nah.

I don't remember the memo date and the changeover scheduled and if it says that?

That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?

Besides the fact that Chuck C has said that that intakes were changed over to Ford doing them when I asked him. I believe the engine painting with the cast iron intake before change over to the aluminum intake had to do with what Ford found to be the best way for them to give the customer (SA) a aluminum intake without paint. It was most likely some type of internal Ford bureaucracy decision.

[J_Speegle]

That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?

Yes it would suggest that the intake and other changes were made after the engines were assembled and hot tested (run) which would be the typical process for all engines.  From there groups were moved over to an area where the items were changed then moved to the loading dock to wait for the next freight car.

Just moving the process from what Shelby would have done to Ford doing it

[shelbydoug]

That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?

Yes it would suggest that the intake and other changes were made after the engines were assembled and hot tested (run) which would be the typical process for all engines.  From there groups were moved over to an area where the items were changed then moved to the loading dock to wait for the next freight car.

Just moving the process from what Shelby would have done to Ford doing it

I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.

To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?

It would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.

...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? 

[J_Speegle]

I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.

To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?

I would in turn then ask what proof do you have of the later? and how logic applies to installing intake manifolds into the bolt only to have to pay someone to remove them before installing the aluminum intake.  The lack of the engine ID tag as mentioned below would be one clue IMHO for those engines built after the short black intake and transferred ID tag period.

Often practices appear to be illogical when we don't have all the facts, most of us have not run an assembly line like we're discussion and we look back at other's choice in years long past.  Sure many of us worked at places where illogical things took place every day. We were workers and not the boss or owner so we did it their way, got paid and went home at the end of the day.

It would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.

That is what some/many believe as well as the transfer of the aluminum engine ID tag

...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? 

If the cast iron intake was installed and the engine aluminum ID tag was installed and run as typically done then the ID tag would have been removed with the intake manifold and carb since the bolt that retained it was not one of the ones that holds the intake to the engine.

[gt350hr]

   Engine ID tags were on many small letter/sender Cobra intakes. Ford did it and so did SAI. When the senders were increased in size and no longer fit , it is "MY" personal opinion few were transferred , though I have seen a few under a manifold hold down bolt. I'm talking about "in the day" not current owner modified.
   Randy

[shelbydoug]

I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.

To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?

I would in turn then ask what proof do you have of the later? and how logic applies to installing intake manifolds into the bolt only to have to pay someone to remove them before installing the aluminum intake.  The lack of the engine ID tag as mentioned below would be one clue IMHO for those engines built after the short black intake and transferred ID tag period.

Often practices appear to be illogical when we don't have all the facts, most of us have not run an assembly line like we're discussion and we look back at other's choice in years long past.  Sure many of us worked at places where illogical things took place every day. We were workers and not the boss or owner so we did it their way, got paid and went home at the end of the day.

It would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.

That is what some/many believe as well as the transfer of the aluminum engine ID tag

...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? 

If the cast iron intake was installed and the engine aluminum ID tag was installed and run as typically done then the ID tag would have been removed with the intake manifold and carb since the bolt that retained it was not one of the ones that holds the intake to the engine.

What proof do I habe?  None. Just like you. What I would say is that what would determine the procedure is cost. In any shape place or form. On any planet. In any type of even a time warp.  I personally wouldn't want to have to explain why I decided that it was the proper thing to install the intakes TWICE AT TWICE THE COST IN LABOR AND MATERIALS.

The person who decided that was on the fast track to a career in the fast food service or janitorial maintenance. Particularly in corporate structure where I woud be monitored by an MBA who wouldn't even know how to install hubcaps or even what they were or used for. Just know that I had authorized the scenario and that it was "obviously a mistake in managerial judgement requiring response of discipline". 

In other words, my butt would be out the door faster then you know what goes through a goose. But if you insist on debating how many angels can sit on the head of a pin, you will be at it alone. I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun.

[J_Speegle]

I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun.

Thanks - I think we discovered allot in the exchange 

[shelbydoug]

I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun.

Thanks - I think we discovered allot in the exchange 

Sure thing. It cuts both ways. Me too.

[gt350hr]

    One VERY BIG issue bothers me . The engine code tags and stickers are linked to a "build book" supplied to engine plant workers for every specific engine.  IF the engines were built to a "different standard" ( intake manifold and carburetor , valve covers , oil pan) and tagged as a 554 , and warehoused by that number, what would prevent them from being used or "regular production" , K code Mustangs that also used a 554 code engine? Remember this all took place in a 1 million + square foot building in Cleveland Ohio, before shipping to San Jose and being warehoused again , not 2 buildings at LAX. IF the tag codes stayed the same on SAI destined engines they would have to be "quarantined"  to prevent one being put into a production K code car. '67 DSO sheets list a "production" 289 High Performance engine with a regular engine tag number to be used not a ''SAI special".
     That is what bothers me about the Cleveland engine plant adding the SAI items back there.
  Respectfully,
    Randy

[J_Speegle]

............................ IF the tag codes stayed the same on SAI destined engines they would have to be "quarantined"  to prevent one being put into a production K code car. '67 DSO sheets list a "production" 289 High Performance engine with a regular engine tag number to be used not a ''SAI special".

There is the possibility that the completed engines were labeled/marked differently so like the paper labels that could be identified quicker and from a greater distance and so the two could be identified quicker when being loaded on specific rail cars for the trip west. Maybe just additional marking or labeling in addition to the "regular" stuff.  Much like the rearends that would have looked the same from a distance if it were not for the DSO hand written to the rear of the housing.

We may be looking too hard to find answers (to this individual question) inside the box rather than other possibilities. Of which I think there are. We have to consider that a simple X, paint mark or other identifier could change a process, parts used or other practice - it didn't take allot as long as everyone affected knew what it meant.

Just a possibility based on what we have at this moment 

[Chad]

Hey Guys,

Yes the intake on 558 was the Cobra aluminum intake.  I can not remember the gentleman's name in WI that did a lot of research on the black intake topic.  I think his name is Dave.  He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350.  I can not remember the number.  He sold it a couple years ago.  Anyway he knows a lot about it.  I believe he figured that towards the end of 65 production Ford installed som of the intakes on the 65 Shelbys and that is why they got painted black.

Yes that is correct!  Thanks
Probably thinking of Dave Steine, who had 5S520, around 10k original miles.  Believe the car was sold sometime in the past couple years?

[SFM6S087]

Jeff & Randy (and anyone else who may know about this),

I'm trying to learn something about the assembly process at San Jose in 1965-66. In particular related to the installation of the engines.

How did they know which engine to put into which car?

Did each car have paperwork that traveled with it down the assembly line to specify what engine to install? If so, how was that engine specified on that document? Via a code like 554J? Or something else?

I know each engine had a metal tag and a sticker – each with the engine code. Did the workers match the code on the paperwork for each car with the code on an engine sticker? Or maybe the workers were trained on how to identify particular engines on sight without having to refer to codes?

In my mind I picture cars traveling down an assembly line with some kind of papers attached to each chassis – with codes for the components to be installed – like 554J to designate the engine. And to the side of that line are all those components with code stickers or some other way to identify them so the correct item gets into the correct car. Again, like an engine with 554J on the engine code sticker. The workers look for the code on the paperwork, find an engine with a code that matches and install it.

Am I close?

I originally posted about this in the SAAC Forum Discussion Area because it seemed a broader question than would be appropriate for this 1966 area of the forum. But I haven't gotten any replies there yet, so I thought I'd try here since that's where this discussion appears to be headed anyway.

Thanks for any info you can add to my education on this topic.

Steve Sloan