Color Change on Judged concours

[Bob Gaines]

I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total.  A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.     

[66TotalPerf]

I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total.  A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.     

Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?

[Bob Gaines]

I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total.  A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.     

Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?

Volunteers are assigned by one of the two concours chairman to tally the sheets. The board refers to the board of directors for the SAAC club. The Board of Directors of SAAC and the various head/lead judges that volunteer their time and expertise for a given class are different.   

[Bob Gaines]

I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total.  A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.     

Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?

The head judges influences the decision as I indicated in reply 15.

[mustang7red]

As 1966 head judge I agree with this decision 100%. However, I do not understand why the points on the car in question would be reinstated due to something found in the archives. In the past 30 years since I have been a head judge we have changed judging rules and scoring on various items at least 6 times (without the approval of the board). The current sheets were just reworked few years ago and many point values changed and some things that had been allowed in the past were revised. I personally do not ever remember us ever allowing a color change in any of the classes, but if we did back then, a lot of rules have changed since then, and it is very clear on the current judging sheets that it is a mandatory 30 point deduction for a color change. We learn more about the "marque" all the time and the judging rules over the years have been changed to reflect this new knowledge.
   Having said all that, the decision of the board is final and I accept that. They are the ultimate authority and I will abide by whatever decision they make. 

[tesgt350]

I know this is about a 1967 Shelby with a Color Change.  Some are OK with it as long as a 1967 Mustang Color was used.  So, what if it was a 1965 Shelby Mustang?  All were White, what if the owner changed it to Tropical Turquoise?  Would that owner be given the exact same considerations?  Or an Owner of a Black Hertz changes the Color to Springtime Yellow?  If you give one a pass, you MUST give them all a pass.

[thefordshow]

I see this discussion is about "Color Change",  I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging.  But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,....  I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones).  I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
   Chris

[thefordshow]

Jmo, but if you start or better yet don't close that door then logically you open up can of worms that if the paint can be changed with a correct year color then it shouldn't matter if parts be changed, (for example A/C hood vs non A/C hood on a 67 Shelby with out deduction). again, jmo it all starts to unravel. Concours should be in the line and efforts of being as correct as possible to the way the car left the dealership.
   Chris

[tesgt350]

I see this discussion is about "Color Change",  I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging.  But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,....  I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones).  I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
   Chris

Original Paint is just that, Original, you can't dispute it.  JMO, If you are entering in any Concours Class, even Driven Concours, your Shelby needs to be "as it left SAI".  Other wise you are just Lying to yourself and everyone else.

[roddster]

  Time to have a Lawyer look over the rules.  I guess it's time to add a line about the rules that states rules used will be as of XXXXX date and no rules earlier will apply.
   Gimme a break over the "volunteers time, money, sweat, etc" as doesn't anyone think the entrants have the same expenses, worries, cares.
 
 

[EdwardGT350]

clear coating should also be a deduction as it never left the factory that way. not a big deduction just 1 point. the car can still score 99 out of 100, it just shouldnt be judged 100 pt perfect car.
single stage paints are still available.

[Bob Gaines]

I know this is about a 1967 Shelby with a Color Change.  Some are OK with it as long as a 1967 Mustang Color was used.  So, what if it was a 1965 Shelby Mustang?  All were White, what if the owner changed it to Tropical Turquoise?  Would that owner be given the exact same considerations?  Or an Owner of a Black Hertz changes the Color to Springtime Yellow?  If you give one a pass, you MUST give them all a pass.

You are under the wrong impression. It is not about a 67 color change. I only spoke up because the issue has to do with all judging classes regardless of year or model. This issue brought up was about a Cobra. Reply #13.

[557]

There is room for everyone in this club which is what makes it cool..My car will never be concours but I realize the importance of these type of cars,they ARE the gold standard and should be AS DELIVERED in every way including color..If exceptions are made where do you set the bar? Also it is very,very expensive to jump through all the hoops to get to this point(including proper paint color,texture,etc)Because of that it is patently unfair to "give someone a pass"when others took the time / effort to do it correctly.Kudos to the concours judges for doing a demanding (and in cases like this ,unpleasant)job for no remuneration.THEY keep the marque strong IMHO.

[Bob Gaines]

I see this discussion is about "Color Change",  I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging.  But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,....  I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones). I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
   Chris

Anyone who has worked with a lot of survivor cars or seen old vintage color photos of the cars can attest to the variations on the SA painted parts compared to Ford. Rest assured the knowledgably SAAC concours judging staff takes those things into account.

[Bob Gaines]

  Time to have a Lawyer look over the rules.  I guess it's time to add a line about the rules that states rules used will be as of XXXXX date and no rules earlier will apply.
  Gimme a break over the "volunteers time, money, sweat, etc" as doesn't anyone think the entrants have the same expenses, worries, cares.
 

Rod, I think you need a break making a statement like that disrespecting all of the volunteers efforts. The difference is the entrants are doing it for themselves and their car . The volunteers are doing it for others.