A proposed class for those cars... not so concours...

[Coralsnake]

In my humble opinion, the problem is and has been SAAC concours people have been unwilling or unable to post any type of guidelines or rules.  There should never be a question as to what is "allowed".  If it looks like the original part, it should be acceptable.

All these posts about what should be allowed are going to make my head explode. Its one of the reasons I resigned as head judge. Of course, no one ever cared enough to ask...

Concours is not for every car, nor should it be. But, posting some general guidelines and rules would go along way to resolving a lot of these issues. Furthermore the BOD should be supportive of those guidelines and not undercut them. SAAC Concours could be a huge draw for the club if done properly, but instead it has become a pain in the ass for the club.

[427heaven]

People don't like to present their cars in shows for fear of reprimands and deductions for every little detail. If you think about what people congregate and swarm over at most car shows is the coolness factor or uniqueness of certain cars. We could have a day 2 class where period modifications would be allowed, its how most of these cars sit currently anyways. Instead of always deducting points, ADD points for someone that has a rare engine setup, wheels that no one has but wish they had, stripes , modifications that people feel are soooo cool. These are personal touches that each individual presents as an extension of themselves. For the few concourse cars- 1 percenters... Leave them alone in their area, for those that love that kind of stuff. A place for all to be happy, and present their cars as they feel they should be presented.

[Chris Thauberger]

 I propose we change the name of the "People's choice" car show to "Day 2".

That should make everyone happy.

[A-Snake]

I not sure why I'm entering this discussion. I've not entered a Shelby in any concours. I am familiar with what is sometimes referred to as Brand X judging. For the sake of a healthy discussing let's just call them Corvettes and the well known judging body of NCRS. The NCRS has long held what is called 'Flight Judging' based on a 4510 possible points. Deviations from original reduce the point count. A car could lose up to 270 points and still achieve a Top Flight.

As the years went by, the NCRS adjusted the criteria to better present a workable criteria in judging. An example would be judging paint. It no longer matters if the material is lacquer or BC/CC, as long as it appears to replicate how the car left the factory, orange peel and all.

I guess similar to Shelby's, fewer cars were being entered into Flight Judging as the criteria didn't fit a lot of owners.

More recently the NCRS began an additional  judging perimeter called 'Concours' judging that is broken into two categories. The 'Concours'  is for cars that are not 'factory' correct. It is designed to include cars without their born-with engines or paint color etc. etc. One category includes cars, with the hood and doors closed, that appear unmodified. The other category are cars that are clearly modified, fender flares, modern suspension etc.

The cars are judges on the quality of the work done. Was the work done in a professional matter that could have be produced by a factory.

[427heaven]

Being a VETTE guy as well, I will share my take on the VETTE crowd. Since My 1963 Split Window was/ is one of the most original Corvettes in existence is what draws the crowds at shows, it is fun to here everyone's perspective and their stories of vintage corvettes. What turned me off was a few simple simons critiquing the engine tin was missing a couple of engine tin wing nuts. Does anyone really care as far as the spectators flowing by to check things out... No, but concourse judges do, so it was easier to just take it to the usual places where people could see it for what it is, a VERY ORIGINAL split window. Now there are plenty of concourse prepped Corvettes out there, and for me it was fun to watch the peoples reactions, to a car that is driven and enjoyed as opposed to a trailer queen that is never allowed out to stretch its legs. Thoughts from a guy that actually uses his cars as intended, not to shove them in the back of the shop and let them rot.

[Chris Thauberger]

Being a VETTE guy as well, I will share my take on the VETTE crowd. Since My 1963 Split Window was/ is one of the most original Corvettes in existence is what draws the crowds at shows, it is fun to here everyone's perspective and their stories of vintage corvettes. What turned me off was a few simple simons critiquing the engine tin was missing a couple of engine tin wing nuts. Does anyone really care as far as the spectators flowing by to check things out... No, but concourse judges do, so it was easier to just take it to the usual places where people could see it for what it is, a VERY ORIGINAL split window. Now there are plenty of concourse prepped Corvettes out there, and for me it was fun to watch the peoples reactions, to a car that is driven and enjoyed as opposed to a trailer queen that is never allowed out to stretch its legs. Thoughts from a guy that actually uses his cars as intended, not to shove them in the back of the shop and let them rot.

So my first question is are the people right? Are the wing nuts missing?

My second question is why don't you just replace the missing wing nuts and be done with it?

[JD]

Replies #2, #3 and #4 - all these fit in the (Reply #1) People's Choice Car Show also held at SAAC National event entry is about $25.00

[CharlesTurner]

What makes any new class work are the following:

-What is the need/benefit to the club and it's members?
-Will there be enough cars to make the class worth the effort? (A couple cars won't justify it)
-What are the standards/guidelines?
-How many judges/resources will be needed to do the work involved? (registration, judging sheets, allocating judges, scoring, trophies, logistics)

It takes people to make this work, and as is the case in most automobile clubs, nearly everyone is a volunteer.

[ramrace]

I agree with Coralsnake.

Coralsnake comment:
"In my humble opinion, the problem is and has been SAAC concours people have been unwilling or unable to post any type of guidelines or rules.  There should never be a question as to what is "allowed".  If it looks like the original part, it should be acceptable.

All these posts about what should be allowed are going to make my head explode. Its one of the reasons I resigned as head judge. Of course, no one ever cared enough to ask...

Concours is not for every car, nor should it be. But, posting some general guidelines and rules would go along way to resolving a lot of these issues. Furthermore the BOD should be supportive of those guidelines and not undercut them. SAAC Concours could be a huge draw for the club if done properly, but instead it has become a pain in the ass for the club."

As an example, I do most of the work on my car because I enjoy it.  I recently decided to refresh my trunk area because I was told by a professional restorer that it would not pass concours judging, specifically the undercoating/sound deadener.  I researched this site, the Concours Mustang site and did searches on the Internet for pictures of 1965 Shelby trunk areas.  I also looked at several other '65 Shelby's I had access to and contacted some other members who sent me pictures of their trunk areas.  To me there was not a consistent pattern for applying the undercoating/sound deadener.  I had no clear understanding of what the judges would find acceptable.  Consequently, I used my best judgment as to what would acceptable.  If it is incorrect, it is not easily changed.  Transporting my car 700 plus miles to a convention to find the sound deadener is incorrect does not excite me.

Guidelines and pictures of what is acceptable would have been great and I believe would encourage more car owners to participate in concours classes.

Example: (I am not saying these specs are correct, just an example)

Application of sound deadner on the interior side of the rear quarter panel.  Lord Fusor Sprayable Seam Sealer 805HD is recommended.

Vertically, start 2" inches down the top of the quarter panel and extend to 4" from the bottom of the quarter panel.
 
Horizontally, start 2 ½ inches from the rear of the quarter panel and extend to a vertical line even with the bottom of the wheel house.

Apply several uneven, non uniform coats.  See pictures.

Edges should not be sharp clean edges.

Spray with body color during paint process.

Just from reading forum comments, judges have varying opinions as to what is correct. Guidelines would help unify these opinions.

Professional restorers have been through the judging process and know the rules and what to expect.

[Wedgeman]

+1

[Terry Curry]

I find this subject interesting. I belong to STOA, Sunbeam Tiger Owners Association located in the SF Bay Area, and all the west coast Tiger clubs get together once a year and they have a big Tiger event called "Tigers United" and they hold a concours at the event (More like a show and shine) and they break down the class of cars by how much you changed on the car: Stock class is supposed to be stock, as delivered from England with dealer options, next class is Personalized, where a few modifications like interior upgrade, engine upgrades or suspension/ brake upgrades, limiting to 5-6 items that could be changed from stock and no body modifications. The third class is modified which is pretty much a freefall, anything goes. We also include cars on the show field as well who don't want to be judged but want to show their car. This gives spectators a chance to see different flavors of the same marque. Because I don't know what goes on at a judged event at SAAC I thought people would like to know what other clubs do at their events.

Terry

[2112]

My Favorite Tigers are the lightly personalized  that are done to a high standard.

[427heaven]

Being a VETTE guy as well, I will share my take on the VETTE crowd. Since My 1963 Split Window was/ is one of the most original Corvettes in existence is what draws the crowds at shows, it is fun to here everyone's perspective and their stories of vintage corvettes. What turned me off was a few simple simons critiquing the engine tin was missing a couple of engine tin wing nuts. Does anyone really care as far as the spectators flowing by to check things out... No, but concourse judges do, so it was easier to just take it to the usual places where people could see it for what it is, a VERY ORIGINAL split window. Now there are plenty of concourse prepped Corvettes out there, and for me it was fun to watch the peoples reactions, to a car that is driven and enjoyed as opposed to a trailer queen that is never allowed out to stretch its legs. Thoughts from a guy that actually uses his cars as intended, not to shove them in the back of the shop and let them rot.

I need to clarify... The wingnuts were vintage wrong wing nuts, but they were very old patina wing nuts so I just left them alone. For total correctness they were wrong, but the guy I got it from told me he lost them over 50 years ago while doing a tune up... I left them alone.
So my first question is are the people right? Are the wing nuts missing?

My second question is why don't you just replace the missing wing nuts and be done with it?

[hertzdonut]

Did Shelby build cars to be driven or shown as concourse 50 years later?

Truly not meant to piss anybody off.

Terry

[Terry Curry]

Yep personalized is my favorite as well but I do have a lot of appreciation for the stock class. I was one of two judges that judge the Tiger Class at Carmel at the big Car weekend in Monterey and it was tough. It took a good 4-5 hours to judge 8 cars.
Attached is a picture of my car, started out stock and now with a 289 with aluminum heads, roll bar, non-stock dash it has ventured over to personalized/ modified depending on how the Tiger Club hosting the event views it.