1967 Big Block Radiator

[robert campbell]

Hello,
I have a numbers correct 1967 Mustang 390 GTA radiator for sale.  I worked in a radiator shop and this is still the original core.  The lower outlet was moved to support a 289 and then moved back to the factory position.  The automatic transmission cooler was also removed.  The top tank has never been removed.  It does not leak and was removed to upgrade to an aluminum radiator.  If anyone is interested I can post pictures of all the numbers and the radiator itself.

$700 Dollars.  I have the shipping box for the aluminum radiator to ship it in.

Rob 

[Bob Gaines]

Hello,
I have a numbers correct 1967 Mustang 390 GTA radiator for sale.  I worked in a radiator shop and this is still the original core.  The lower outlet was moved to support a 289 and then moved back to the factory position.  The automatic transmission cooler was also removed.  The top tank has never been removed.  It does not leak and was removed to upgrade to an aluminum radiator.  If anyone is interested I can post pictures of all the numbers and the radiator itself.

$700 Dollars.  I have the shipping box for the aluminum radiator to ship it in.

Rob

Are the numbers on the side strap or on the top tank?

[robert campbell]

No numbers on the side brackets.  Tag is on left side across the bracket attachment area.  C7ZE  V2.  Under the clamp down bracket area that was covered is WMO and under the WMO is 06  11.   Top tank has FoMoCo stamp on right side.

[robert campbell]

Bill,
Is this correct for a 1967 Shelby with a big block?  Or, am I mistaken?

Rob

[Bob Gaines]

Bill,
Is this correct for a 1967 Shelby with a big block?  Or, am I mistaken?

Rob

Not Bill but a V2 tag was not used on a 67 Shelby GT500 . Could you have misread the tag and it is instead reads Y2 ? The only inconsistency is that a Y2 would be for a manual transmission BB instead of a automatic. You said the trans cooler was removed . Is there fittings for a trans cooler or does it have a bottom tank from a manual trans with no fittings?

[robert campbell]

Sorry Bob, you are not Bill,
It is definitely a V2 tag.  Our car is an original 390 automatic car that we are the 3rd owner of since 1975.  The fittings are gone and the bottom tank is more than likely a 4 speed version.  I am 100 percent confident that it is original to our car.  Not sure if it is appropriate for a 67 Shelby auto car our not.  You are the expert, but a local Shelby restorer feels it is correct for a 1967 Shelby GT 500 auto car.  What is your opinion?

Rob

[J_Speegle]

Not Bob

Quick look through and I've got G2's earlier automatic GT500's

Found Z2's on later cars

Original unrestored examples are limited

[Bob Gaines]

Sorry Bob, you are not Bill,
It is definitely a V2 tag.  Our car is an original 390 automatic car that we are the 3rd owner of since 1975.  The fittings are gone and the bottom tank is more than likely a 4 speed version.  I am 100 percent confident that it is original to our car.  Not sure if it is appropriate for a 67 Shelby auto car our not.  You are the expert, but a local Shelby restorer feels it is correct for a 1967 Shelby GT 500 auto car.  What is your opinion?

Rob

My opinion is that the your local expert should do some more home work.  A V2 tag is out of the ordinary. It wasn't used on a 67 GT500 and quite frankly I have yet to figure out the application it was used on. Maybe someone else will come up with that.  I can't say for sure if it is correct for your 67 GTA 390 or not but I am skeptical on that application as well given that the Mustang and Shelby's used many of the same parts radiators being one of them. Does your GTA have A/C ? If it does then it should come with a extra cooling radiator originally and if it does not then it would be different then a Shelby given they all got the heavy duty cooling radiator. At the very least it can't be used as a automatic radiator anymore given that there are no fittings evident in the bottom tank based on what you described . At the very least it is not a bolt correct radiator for any 67 GT500 given the current configuration.  With all of that said,  for all practical purposes it is a manual transmission radiator now in it's current configuration. The simplest thing would be to first get rid of that odd V2 tag (its soldered on so it is relatively easy to change) and get one of the AMK F2 radiator tags that a GT500 4 speed regardless of if had AC or not would have used (Shelby only). That is if you are trying to make it work for a 67 GT500. At the very least it will look the part given your description details and the addition of the correct tag. The only difference will be the fin count depending on if it was a heavy duty radiator originally or not .  If it has to be recored then that point doesn't matter anymore. I hope this helps. 

[J_Speegle]

Sorry Bob, you are not Bill,
It is definitely a V2 tag.  Our car is an original 390 automatic car that we are the 3rd owner of since 1975. 

Still looking through data and I found 67 S code automatic Mustang buildsheets  that confirm that they (C7ZE-V) were at least used for some of the 67 production period and S code automatic applications.

As we understand the individual ID tag applied to the top tank is typical of San Jose production

But as Bob stated - since the radiator has been modified might make little difference now.

[robert campbell]

My "Ford Muscle Parts Identifier and Restoration Guide" that was first printed in 1992 identifies a "cast" number of C7ZE-V.  This number crosses in this book to a part number C7ZZ-C.  Not sure if this book thinks a cast number is a tag number.  The C7ZZ-C part number crosses to a 1967 390 with standard cooling or with extra cooling and AC.  My car was not an AC car from the factory.  The C7ZZ-C part number is the only part number listed for a big block 390 in this book for 1967.  So according to this book it was proper for my 1967 Mustang 390 GTA.  The tag is original and so is the core.  My background in radiators helps here.  My car is a San Jose car so it may be different than Shelby's.  I offer this for someone who wants this originality.  It is old, but it is not plugged and does not leak.  I change anti freeze annually and we have owned this car since 1976.  It has led a pampered life.

The bottom tank could be easily replaced by a competent radiator shop.  I have done literally hundreds of them.

Rob 

[Bob Gaines]

My "Ford Muscle Parts Identifier and Restoration Guide" that was first printed in 1992 identifies a "cast" number of C7ZE-V.  This number crosses in this book to a part number C7ZZ-C.  Not sure if this book thinks a cast number is a tag number.  The C7ZZ-C part number crosses to a 1967 390 with standard cooling or with extra cooling and AC.  My car was not an AC car from the factory.  The C7ZZ-C part number is the only part number listed for a big block 390 in this book for 1967.  So according to this book it was proper for my 1967 Mustang 390 GTA.  The tag is original and so is the core.  My background in radiators helps here. My car is a San Jose car so it may be different than Shelby's.  I offer this for someone who wants this originality.  It is old, but it is not plugged and does not leak.  I change anti freeze annually and we have owned this car since 1976.  It has led a pampered life.

The bottom tank could be easily replaced by a competent radiator shop.  I have done literally hundreds of them.

Rob

FYI ,65,66,and 67 Shelby's were also San Jose produced cars. In this case the mfg plant has nothing to do with why your car's 390 automatic radiator are different then what came in the 67 GT500 made at the same plant as your statement implies. It was other extenuating factors that came into play.

[robert campbell]

Bob,
So your research must come from hands on inspection of many 1967 Shelby big blocks and noting the tag numbers?  Or do you have another source?  Or as I like to say "never say never" unless every 1967 Shelby produced (or a very large percentage) has been looked at.

My old doctor worked on the graveyard shift at the Ford engine assembly plant.  Rule number one was "the line does not stop".  You know what rule two was.  390's for example came down the line and sometimes a he said that the performance versions came down the same line as the passenger car engines.  Sometime the performance "camshaft" bin was empty and the engine got whatever was available.  This was a quote from an actual line worker.

I have had fun battles on subjects such as these in the past.  I learn, and sometimes other people learn.  Like screwed on dash data plates in 1968 Mustangs and Cougars at Dearborn.  Never happened?  Yes, it did?

Rob

[J_Speegle]

Rule number one was "the line does not stop". 

Another one of those things that you can't say never to   Number of workers reported lines stopping and what individual workers did when it stopped.  Must have caused managers allot of grief and it must have been something really important.

[Bob Gaines]

Bob,
So your research must come from hands on inspection of many 1967 Shelby big blocks and noting the tag numbers?  Or do you have another source?  Or as I like to say "never say never" unless every 1967 Shelby produced (or a very large percentage) has been looked at.

My old doctor worked on the graveyard shift at the Ford engine assembly plant.  Rule number one was "the line does not stop".  You know what rule two was.  390's for example came down the line and sometimes a he said that the performance versions came down the same line as the passenger car engines.  Sometime the performance "camshaft" bin was empty and the engine got whatever was available.  This was a quote from an actual line worker.

I have had fun battles on subjects such as these in the past.  I learn, and sometimes other people learn.  Like screwed on dash data plates in 1968 Mustangs and Cougars at Dearborn.  Never happened?  Yes, it did?

Rob

Rob,my research comes from a combination of first hand observation supplemented with documentation and yes I have been doing it for many decades now. You need both the observation and the documentation to get a better over all view. The same goes with Shelby build techniques.  I study 65-70 Shelby's and by understanding how the cars were put together from 65-70 production years helps me fill in the blanks sometimes by logical progression. That is a advantage some of us that study multiple years have that others don't. I learn something new every day ether by personal discovery or by the shared discover of others. You need all of it together so as to get a better over all picture for what happened at a given time. There are things that were supposed to be done by the engineering drawings the factory drew and then that which real life in the field showed were not done like it was meant to .The same goes for things done at SA and to a lessor extent AO Smith. The heater motor shields on big blocks were supposed to be removed and the overwhelming majority did not. You can always say anything is possible but as it applies to the originality aspect of these cars that is typically abused by many to justify a non original part . It is too easy to say anything is possible when something that doesn't fit the normal comes along.  I choose instead to say the likely and the unlikely. Of course there are multiple facets in between those two extremes. 

[robert campbell]

Ah, as I already kinda knew you would say.  Just to clear the air, I am not trying to justify this radiator as a Shelby radiator.  Please share with us the proper tag number and some of your knowledge of how many examples you have seen.  Please share the source of your documentation on the radiator.  If it purely observational even by a collection of enthusiasts, then it would be interesting to know an approximation of how many 1967 GT 500's you have observed? As a percentage of the total.

The reason I posted on THIS site is the collective knowledge and to ensure that I knew what I had.  From what Mr. Speegle has found and yes, my one documented source it is correct for a 1967 Mustang with a 390.  With that in mind I can properly represent it as that, and in that, it still has some value.

I think it would be interesting to post this discussion on the 1967 Shelby thread.  See how many people have original radiators and what their tags are.

You have forgotten more than I will ever know about the Shelby line.  My Ford knowledge spans various makes and models of the Blue Oval car line and I bleed Ford blue.  Decades or observation and wrenching and listening.  And I return to my previous thought.  Never say Never.  I punctuate most comments with phases like "to the best of the documentation and observation that I have read or seen".  And that is exactly where the knowledge was gained and what it is worth.

Rob