Engine Temp Issues

[Dunerider777]

Looking for advise on what could be causes and fixes to running hot/overheating. Just finishing up last details and starting to drive 6S1164 after restoring it and have run into a problem. The car is running hot when I drive it. Takes about five to ten minutes of driving around and engine temp on the gauge has the needle running at the middle to far right of the "M" and up towards the "P". When shot with a heat gun reads about 200 on the water pump and around 210 on the front of the heads. When I stop and shut car off pushes a little coolant out, about half a cup or so. The engine has been completely rebuilt to stock specs, has a 160 degree thermostat, has original radiator that had to be re-cored, along with the heater core, correct hi-po water pump and original aluminum 4 blade fan and re-pop fan shroud. It also has an original rebuilt C6ZF-F flat top autolite carburetor.  Timing is actually set 2 degrees retarded for stock specs and running a pertronix electronic ignition. I am running Evans Waterless Coolant.

If anyone has any advise it will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Jason

[Dunerider777]

Here are a couple shots of the engine compartment

[Side-Oilers]

Nice looking engine compartment. 

Checked for a vacuum leak?

Those temps don't really sound very hot to me.  Unless it was a bone cold day outside when you checked them.  But I have no experience with waterless coolant, so I can't comment on that part.

There are some very knowledgeable guys on here who will tell you that a 160 degree stat is too low. 180-190 seems to be more the preferred range.

What happens if you bump up the timing by 2 degrees or so?  Not sure that retarded initial timing is what you want...depending on how your camshaft was degreed-in, of course.

[cob4ra]

I've always felt that retarded timing ads heat: I timed mine by 36 degrees overall at full advance and all in by 2500 rpm by adjusting springs on the mechanical advance ; mine runs cool ! Some small block fords can run hot if their coolant/water runs through the block too fast ; just a reminder " coolant or anti-freeze does not cool your block; only raises your boiling point! Let's see what other comments you get on a 160 thermostat as well? What's the radiator cap lbs?

[cob4ra]

Also check your mechanical advance  mine has been known to dry up and get " sticky or slow " ! So runs retarded at rpms just cruising down the road ! Light lubricant down the tube where you're rotor sits and flip it until loose

[68gtcoupe]

I had a similar issue last year with my '68 Mustang GT 302.  In my case, ended up being a clogged radiator which was remedied after a thorough flush.  A few things come to mind:

-Timing.  Small block Fords love timing.  I'm at 15 degrees initial, 36 total, all advance in by 2800 rpm.  I'm running an MSD Ready-To-Run distributor.  My engine was rebuilt with a compression ratio of 9.5:1.  I've never had an issue with detonation using 93 octane fuel.

-Check carburetor and make sure you're not running lean.  Always safer to be a little rich if anything, but a lean condition could certainly lead to higher temps

-I used to run a 160 thermostat.  Switched to a 180 when I flushed the radiator.  Engine warms up faster now and the 180 thermostat has no effect on the final running temperature of the engine

-I'm running a Ford 5-blade fan, no fan shroud, stock radiator, stock radiator cap

Good luck with it!

Terry

[shelbydoug]

Why is 210 hot? Normal operating temperature should be in the 210 to 220 F area.

If you are boiling over at 210 ish then it's likely that you have a bad radiator cap.

These are pressurized systems. It should have a 12 psi cap and boil over with a properly presurized system and 50/50 anti-freeze is around 242.

You need an accurate temp gauge that you can read. At least temporarily install one. I long ago replaced the Ford gauge and put it in archives. You can't accurately diagnose what's going on if you are guessing.

You need to pressure test the entire cooling system and pressure test the cap too to make sure that it can hold 12 psi. 15 wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Many caps are coming out of the box defective. Many radiators are not sealing properly at the cap mating surface.

If you are boiling over at just over 212 then your system isn't holding pressure.

Not only do you WANT the system to run at 220, you want the oil temp over 212 to cook out the moisture in it. If you don't, you're going to get excessive engine wear and the engine will not seal the piston rings correctly. That's also a loss of horsepower.

[Rocket]

Cap should be a 13 lb. one. If you are filling radiator all the way to the top, you are going go have a little out the overflow when you shut it off. In my opinion, you should leave the coolant  level down 1/2 to 3/4 inches down in radiator. Ron

[sg66]

A few things I would check:

1.) Temperature sending unit: The resistance is supposed to change with temperature and many after market units (made in China) are off the mark which can be why your gauge appears to read hotter than reality. A few years ago I found that Autozone sells units engineered in Wisconsin by Wells Vehicle Electronics which include engineering specs for resistance. (Looks like mfg is in Mexico) The large hole (TU25) for 66 calls for a range of 176 - 24 ohms between 100 and 220 degrees. https://wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/TU25C.pdf

Or https://wvebrand.com/part-detail/sales_drawings/TU22D.pdf

I had a bad one that tested 11 ohms @ 180 and when replaced read 35 ohms @ 180 and the gauge problem went away. I tested by boiling a pot of water with an ohm meter attached to unit and an IR thermometer and observed the change in ohms as things heated up.

Autozone sells them under the Duralast brand as TU25. They used to sell the smaller hole units for earlier Cobra intakes as TU22 but those seem to be out of stock.

2.) consider pouring in a bottle of Water Wetter which is supposed to help with cooling

3.) As far as puking up water, if you do a pressure check and the cap is good, I would double check the torque on your heads to make sure that isn't causing pressure in the system.

4.) I agree with others on the 160 thermostat and would at a minimum put in a 180

5.) Is the block bored 0.30, 0.40, 0.60?

6.) does the lower radiator hose have the spring in it to prevent collapse?

[gjz30075]

+1 to #1.

#3 - Coolant level should be about  1" below the bottom of the neck.   Much more, and it'll puke out.  It needs room for expansion.

[Bob Gaines]

A few things I would check:

1.) Temperature sending unit: The resistance is supposed to change with temperature and many after market units (made in China) are off the mark which can be why your gauge appears to read hotter than reality. A few years ago I found that Autozone sells units made in Wisconsin by Wells Vehicle Electronics which include engineering specs for resistance. The large hole (TU25) for 66 calls for a range of 176 - 24 ohms between 100 and 220 degrees. https://wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/TU25C.pdf

I had a bad one that tested 11 ohms @ 180 and when replaced read 35 ohms @ 180 and the gauge problem went away. I tested by boiling a pot of water with an ohm meter attached to unit and an IR thermometer and observed the change in ohms as things heated up.

Autozone sells them under the Duralast brand as TU25. They used to sell the smaller hole units for earlier Cobra intakes as TU22 but those seem to be out of stock.

2.) consider pouring in a bottle of Water Wetter which is supposed to help with cooling

3.) As far as puking up water, if you do a pressure check and the cap is good, I would double check the torque on your heads to make sure that isn't causing pressure in the system.

4.) I agree with others on the 160 thermostat and would at a minimum put in a 180

5.) Is the block bored 0.30, 0.40, 0.60?

6.) does the lower radiator hose have the spring in it to prevent collapse?

The OP said that he is using the Evans waterless system. I do not think the Water Wetter product is compatible with the Evans "waterless" system . The Waterwetter product will most likely contaminate the Evans system .  It may make things worse. I hope that the OP followed the strict protocol of getting rid of all water before adding the Evans.   That could be a issue also. I had a friends shop who used the Evans Product and although it worked it was not as dramatic as hoped. The product is expensive for a customer and also the labor time to install when you go through all of the protocol needed to install as directed. He discontinued using it for those reasons.   

[zray]

As shelbyDoug mentioned, install a true mechanical temperature gauge, even temporarily. The heat gun is nowhere as accurate as a good mechanical AutoMeter gauge.

Why in heavens name are you using a 160 thermostat.  Millions of 1960's era Fords shipped with the 190-192 series thermostat and they ran beautifully when new, and if assembled correctly, will still run perfectically with the 190 thermostat.

The 160 thermostat is the worst thing you can put in a 289, especially a fresh motor. On short trips the motor oil will not reach operational temperatures, and the water condensate in the oil WILL form a very nice sludge, unless the oil gets hot enough to burn it off. 

I agree with the assessment that a true 210 - 220 F reading taken by a real gauge is not too hot. Do you have a shop manual ?  Reading it will tell you the stock 190 series thermostat doesn't even fully open until 212 plus.

More facts are needed before anyone can help with this issue. Starting with a legitimate temperature reading

Z

PS. The fine print on the Evans website wil tell you to expect your engine to run somewhat hotter with their product.   For automotive use, I discourage the use of Evans. If your jet engine hydraulics run too hot then go ahead and use it. But in a vintage car, no.

[Bob Gaines]

As shelbyDoug mentioned, install a true mechanical temperature gauge, even temporarily. The heat gun is nowhere as accurate as a good mechanical AutoMeter gauge.

Why in heavens name are you using a 160 thermostat.  Millions of 1960's era Fords shipped with the 190-192 series thermostat and they ran beautifully when new, and if assembled correctly, will still run perfectically with the 190 thermostat.

The 160 thermostat is the worst thing you can put in a 289, especially a fresh motor. On short trips the motor oil will not reach operational temperatures, and the water condensate in the oil WILL form a very nice sludge, unless the oil gets hot enough to burn it off. 

I agree with the assessment that a true 210 - 220 F reading taken by a real gauge is not too hot. Do you have a shop manual ?  Reading it will tell you the stock 190 series thermostat doesn't even fully open until 212 plus.

More facts are needed before anyone can help with this issue. Starting with a legitimate temperature reading

Z

PS. The fine print on the Evans website wil tell you to expect your engine to run somewhat hotter with their product.   For automotive use, I discourage the use of Evans. If your jet engine hydraulics run too hot then go ahead and use it. But in a vintage car, no.

Strange that when 190 degree thermostats are used on some older hotter running overbored engines they boil over even with good caps. When the same engines had the thermostats  switched out with the 160 degree they still ran in the 190 - 200 degree range but didn't go to far past and boil over. Too many instances like that to dismiss it completely. This is not the case with every engine but I think that enough are positively effected by the thermostat switch out not make a blanket statement like never ever use a 160 degree etc.     

[zray]

Bob, this isn't the first time we are at odds with each other  over the 160 degree thermostat use, and I imagine it won't be the last time. Our positions are very unlikely to ever be modified by what the other guy is saying.

So lets shake hands, and come out swingin'

with limited running time, like in a parade, yes a 160 might help.

But in 99.99% of all cases, once the thermostat has fully opened, the engine doesn't care if it's a 160 or a 190. Overheating at that point has nothing to do with the thermostat, (and you know it). 

Thermostats only set the low point of an engine temperature, never the high point. That's been true since the first one was used, long before either of us was around to observe the results.

Z.

[Side-Oilers]

Can the OP please let us know if the engine has been over-bored...and if so, by how much?

A 0.060 over 289 (and a lot of other engines) will tend to run hot, IMO.   Early Mustangs weren't exactly known for having lots of thermal reserve in their cooling systems, although YES millions of early Mustangs have run just fine with all the stock equipment.  But now we have here a rebuilt engine with unknown specs, an alternate coolant, and possibly other things that might be contributing to the "running hot" issue.  (I'm still suspecting a vacuum leak and/or the retarded timing...OR the simplest answer in that there's nothing wrong at all. Once the coolant level and any air pockets in the system have been worked out, it may operate properly.)

I agree with Doug and others who have said that 200-210 is not hot. You need a lengthy 212-degree heat to burn off condensation. That's why, long ago, many little old lady cars had tons of gunk in the crankcase despite having only a few thousand miles on the engine.  They weren't driven long enough to get "good and hot" and thus that became a great contributor to the sludge. Fortunately, oils have improved markedly over the decades, but it still is a good idea to not over-cool the engine so far so that it never gets up to "proper" operating temp.

As for the thermostat temp, I tend to agree with running a 180-190 t-stat. But I have also owned cars that ran hot and I removed the t-stat completely. Some still ran hot, while others ran a bit cooler.  In those that ran cooler, it probably was a malfunctioning t-stat in the first place, so removing it helped the coolant flow.  The primary purpose of the t-stat is to allow the engine to get up to operating temp. Most notably in cold weather. Once the t-stat opens completely,  it's up to the rest of the cooling system to do its job.

Bob has seen/judged/scrutinized more Mustangs than I have, so I will defer to him as to a (relatively rare) situation where a lower temp t-stat actually does reduce overall engine temps.