Ram Box

[gt350hr]

    Earl ,
        Those are die cast 6214 IR carbs. Yes I know Roy has an offset dist. He also has TOE in his backyard and Jr can make the carbs work. The air cleaner is the tricky part. We know IR carbs ( of any brand) have reversion. This forms as a "cloud" above the stacks in a static condition. In motion the weight of the fuel throws it around some. Wherever the fuel lands , it accumulates to the point where it "rains" down. ( Science lesson LOL) That phenomenon takes a perfect air fuel ratio and makes it dead rich wherever the droplets "randomly fall". The closer the top of the "enclosure "( air box , hood , or air cleaner) the quicker the droplets form and upset the tuning. In an "open" ( Can Am or exposed carbs) the "cloud" can't form as the car passing through the air prevents it.  IR in this case is not street friendly , but allot of what we do is the same way.
     Randy

[shelbydoug]

    Earl ,
        Those are die cast 6214 IR carbs. Yes I know Roy has an offset dist. He also has TOE in his backyard and Jr can make the carbs work. The air cleaner is the tricky part. We know IR carbs ( of any brand) have reversion. This forms as a "cloud" above the stacks in a static condition. In motion the weight of the fuel throws it around some. Wherever the fuel lands , it accumulates to the point where it "rains" down. ( Science lesson LOL) That phenomenon takes a perfect air fuel ratio and makes it dead rich wherever the droplets "randomly fall". The closer the top of the "enclosure "( air box , hood , or air cleaner) the quicker the droplets form and upset the tuning. In an "open" ( Can Am or exposed carbs) the "cloud" can't form as the car passing through the air prevents it.  IR in this case is not street friendly , but allot of what we do is the same way.
     Randy

My discovery about the fuel cloud is (I can only speak of Webers at this point) the cloud hovers over each stack at about 3 to 3-1/2" high.

If you extend the stack to 5" (like on the factory racing Panteras) the cloud stays within the stack.

The cloud only appears at over  a certain rpm and the fuel droplets are dumped back into the carb at idle or something approaching idle where they don't effect the power curve by changing  the a/f ratio. Just maybe like a small accelerator shot?

Unfortunately there are no Mustang derived cars that have that kind of hood room to run 5" stacks. The Pantera does with about 1" of clearance to the roof.

[gt350hr]

    The droplets DO affect the dominators under the '69 T/A airbox!  Yes 4"s or more seems to do the trick for clearance.  The cloud is still present beyond idle , been there , done that.

[shelbydoug]

the cloud MAY always be there BUT because of in this case a reverse Venturi effect, it may need a certain rpm for it to rise out of the carb throat in order to be visible?

The Webers don't seem to be effected much by this reversion cloud as far as a/f goes. They are at points so rich to begin with, it's next to impossible to determine that.

I think that is where in IDA's the emulsion tubes have some effect at leaning or enrichening the mixture for a certain rpm range?

[gt350hr]

    Doug ,
      If you remember GT40s had a "tray" or cover about 4"s above the carbs. Vintage road race Cobras often have eight round ring stains on the underside of the hood/scoop. The cloud does end up condensating on the object above the carbs and produces the rings. It is probably more apparent on race cars with fuel with a dye ( red , blue , purple , yellow) than with a pump gas with no dye. It doesn't happen on fuel injection because the fuel is sprayed at high pressure into the port , not siphoned out of a carburetor and the "tubes" are usually long enough to keep the fuel vapor in the tube eliminating the possibility of combining to for the "cloud".
    Randy

[shelbydoug]

All consistent with my "discovery".

I would tend to disagree about the cause of the rings though. In my case I am very sure they are from the flames thrown out of the carbs when starting cold.

In daylight it isn't that apparent, but at night, what a show! The neighbors would come over and watch me start the car at night. About 12 feet they felt was a safe distance.

As a matter of fact, I was going to repaint the inside of the hood white as delivered from the factory. I gave up the prep after a day or so when I still couldn't get the ring marks out of the hood and just sprayed it all semi-gloss black.

Flames. The rings are from the flames!

[TA Coupe]

Is this the Boss 302 set up or is there one for the Windsor heads also?

Have you ever seen a version of this manifold for a 9.2 Cleveland?

Not meaning to be a downer but I can envision a volcano of reversion with this and having worked with Webers on IR's I can't imagine how you can cover the carbs with an air cleaner. It's just going to go up in flames?

In any case, adventurous is an understatement and on the surface, looks so innocent to boot?

Very cool. 

Doug, there is no version for a Cleveland deck height motor but I will attach a picture showing a Shelby single Dominator intake along with a few other rare intakes. As for the reversion problem I have a couple of possible solutions. One is to lower the engine an inch and raise the lid of the air cleaner as high as possible which might possibly get me about four in's and if I go with a cowl hood I could probably get up to 6 in. Also I thought of putting in a very small blower motor like out of a computer that would blow the reversion cloud away and that might solve the problem also. Another possible solution would be to put something like an inverted V peace of a metal under the air cleaner lid so that any droplets would form their and run off to the sides of the carburetors. What do you think Randy and Doug?

The first intake upper left is a street boss intake to use 2 BBL Cleveland heads on an 8.2 in deck height block. The second picture is the Shelby Cleveland Dominator intake. The third intake is just a Ford letter high rise intake for a 289 or 302 and the fourth intake is a GT40 ported intake for my 93 lightning.
On the lower row of intakes going from left to right is a 2-4 289 302 intake and next to it is the TransAm version. In the center is the Dual Dominator Boss 302 intake and next to that is the extremely rare 69 Trans Am intake for regular Holley's. The last intake is the Shelby 2-4 Boss 302 intake which does not require an offset distributor. I have also attached a picture of an offset distributor that I have. I have also attached a picture of one of Rich Rodeck's tunnel Port 302 intakes.

   Roy

[shelbydoug]

Very cool collection.

As I said, my experience with IR manifolds is limited to Webers. In my case I started with them about '78 with a Boss 351 in my '68 GT350.

The clearance to the hood was so tight with stock stacks that the front two stacks and auxiliary venturis needed to be cut a full inch.

I eventually went back to the 302, as a 347 and arrived at a combination of AFR 185 heads with a C60A t/a. It fits nice whereas the Cleveland was just too big on every dimension.


The height of the cloud clearly showed in a video of a Webered Cleveland on a dyno run with the cloud hovering just over the stock stacks which are 2-3/4" heigh.

The Pantera has the room to use a 5" stack. Few other cars do. Certainly I can't think of any Mustangs that have that kind of room?

Probably not co-incidentally vintage pictures of the Pantera Gp4 factory race cars clearly show the racer version of the stacks, soldered together arriving at just around a 5" height.

You know on race cars virtually nothing is done for no reason. I think that the taller stack on the race Pantera was not just done to tune the torque for a certain rpm.

It solved the issue of the cloud with a race cam in the car and no where to let the droplets drain to but on top of the headers?


i know that the engines in the Daytonna Coupes were lowered 1" since they required a shortened oil pan.

I'm surprised that wasn't done to the trans-am cars too. Like you suggested, it MIGHT just provide you enough height for taller stacks.


Not to give the GM guys any credit but the raised "cowl induction" hood on the Camaros does give more room right over the top of the carbs.


Randy is the guy to ask about this. I understand he has toiled tremendously on a couple of the t/a boss cars. If there is a fix, he'd know?


Thanks for showing me your collection. I'm envious.

[TA Coupe]

Speaking of Weber's, I figured I'd post a couple pictures of the Mirage GT40 aluminum motor that I sold to Jay Cushman a couple of years ago. The Weber's are some I got when I saw Jim in Inglese at sacc in Monterey 35 or 40 years ago. I traded him a magnesium cross ram Weber intake for 58 Webber's to go on a 289. The heads on the motor were not correct but they were aluminum ones from 1973.

   Roy

[shelbydoug]

We love pictures. The more the better.

[gt350hr]

  Doug,
  The only way to put IR dominators on a 351C is with a Weiand "Pro Ram" and some 1/2" spacer/adaptors shaped from round to "D". THEN you will still need "some" form of an offset distributor. Ford did make one and I sold the one I had to Craig Olsen many years ago. Ford made a handful of single plane dual for Cleveland intakes for regular Holleys. Two different friends have them now. The low end performance is dismal at best. WHY anyone would want IR on a 351C is beyond me.
     The rings  were fuel not burnt fuel. If you had fire coming out of your

   Roy ,
      Lower the motor. Use an open , 2" tall spacer under each carb. That should solve the probem. Jr can make the carbs work for you.
   Randy
     

[shelbydoug]

  Doug,
  The only way to put IR dominators on a 351C is with a Weiand "Pro Ram" and some 1/2" spacer/adaptors shaped from round to "D". THEN you will still need "some" form of an offset distributor. Ford did make one and I sold the one I had to Craig Olsen many years ago. Ford made a handful of single plane dual for Cleveland intakes for regular Holleys. Two different friends have them now. The low end performance is dismal at best. WHY anyone would want IR on a 351C is beyond me.
     The rings  were fuel not burnt fuel. If you had fire coming out of your

   Roy ,
      Lower the motor. Use an open , 2" tall spacer under each carb. That should solve the probem. Jr can make the carbs work for you.
   Randy
   

Yes, I'm aware of the Wieand tunnel ram. There are a couple of folks running them with 1850's on 3/4" spacer plates on the street in Panteras.

In asking, I'm not looking for a Ford 351c t/a, just asking if anyone has ever seen them? I don't know where the t/a program dropped off, but it looks like right in the beginning of the 351c racing development?

In fact it appears that the issue Detomaso was having with engine failure in the Group 4 Panteras is that there had been no development on the engine (or little) at that point. He was one of the first to race them in competition.

Bud Moore was just starting his development and Dyno Don was immersed in "testing" the "special parts", aluminum blocks and heads, that Ford dropped off at his door.


It is said that the Weber 48ida "Detomaso Pantera" intake manifold was done for Ford by Holman-Moody.  Unfortunately sending the molds and completed manifolds to Detomaso in Europe was not a good idea?

Something like 15 complete sets were sold and the remainder of the manifolds and the molds disappeared?

The Cleveland falls in kind of a no mans land because of the dropping of funding to racing by Ford?


As far as what causes the rings...something. I should do a video of starting the car at night. Whatever it is, it's a light show. I'll just call it my own aurora borealis? I'm far enough north.

Actually, it's one of the first things Kopec asked me about the Webers, which he already was running for a year. "Did you notice the light show yet?"


A Weber 48ida intake manifold IS an IR intake. Initially I started with iron Boss heads and the big port manifold in my 68 GT350.

Eventually I didn't want to wrestle with making the thing fit and pulled the entire engine out and put the 347 in.


I was fortunate to come up with a very nice set of race prepped A3 aluminum Ford heads from Joe Lapine and am using them in my Pantera with the matching "small port" intake AND raised exhaust port 180 degree headers. That's where everything sits now.

No ram boxes for me...unless you get me very drunk and...


Anything else I say about the three setups is from my experience, not my expertise and likely others experiences will vary?

The 5" stacks on the Webers seem to have fixed a lot of issues others have in Mustang chassis.

...Oh, and you need 5" OVER the top of  the carbs to contain the fuel cloud although I like the idea of the lowered engine, but put a skid plate on the oil pan...


That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.  Inconsistencies I'll blame on unexpected side effects of the virus, codeine cough medicine mixed with Jack Daniels.  What month is this?

[gt350hr]

   The 351C was never considered for T/A so there wasn't a dual dominator intake made for  it.

[shelbydoug]

   The 351C was never considered for T/A so there wasn't a dual dominator intake made for  it.

Euro Group 4 rules permitted the Webers. Dual Dominators with the 4 corner idle were an "engineering substitute" for IR ida's. Webers had been run and developed in the Cobra racing program.

The dual Dominators on a T/A ir manifold are just another way of doing the same thing with less total carb height.

Maybe it was just Ford setting Detomaso off on his own development program but there seems to be a point at which Ford stopped sharing information with them and maybe just figured Detomaso was happy with the Webers and the Webers fit the Group 4 rules so why waste more time and money?

Just idle speculation and discussion on my part and a thought that there was some thought of other carb development particularly in light of that 2x4 Holley intake that showed up in an obscure magazine article and the actual existence of a 3x2 Cleveland intake?

Probably the Doug Nash split magnesium intake cast for either dual Autolite inlines or for mechanical fuel injection, 8.0 block, 9.2 or other combination, should be mentioned also as I suppose abstract induction possibilities depending on how the class rules went? Another IR possibility.

What program an engine was intended for doesn't seem to necessarily be the determining factor for production. I'm told that the aluminum 351c blocks have 68 casting dates and were made for the "Ford Indy Program". So what's the difference in which program they originate from?


Plus picking your brain is fun Randy. Seems like you are the only one left alive with specific insider knowledge that will talk about this stuff at all?